SoloHQ: Forum

Forum

Post 0

Wednesday, November 16 - 12:40pm

Link

Edit

Yes indeed!
Great quote Luke!

(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 11/16, 12:40pm)

Post 1

Wednesday, November 16 - 1:36pm

Link

Edit

Very interesting quote. Good food for thought.

Michael

Post 2

Wednesday, November 16 - 5:35pm

Link

Edit

Helen Gurley Brown was saying this in Cosmopolitan decades ago.

Peter

Post 3

Wednesday, November 16 - 6:41pm

Link

Edit

Robert McCracken isn't brother to one half of that great Scots acting duo, Ben Doon & Phil McCracken, is he?

Ross

Post 4

Wednesday, November 16 - 8:03pm

Link

Edit

I detest this shallow "pretend omniscience" quote.

It is very difficult to learn all about someone and there are no single criterion, one shot short cuts like this. Stop and think for a moment: If I -earn- my money as a stockbroker or running a vinyard or as a painter, and then I -spend- my money on food or travel or buying a better vehicle, what have you learned about me? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING OF ANY IMPORTANCE FOR CHRISSAKE.

At least Rand was closer when she said "tell me what a man finds attractive or who he sleeps with...". Romantic attractions tell you much more than the garbage in this silly "fake wiseman" quote.

Phil
(Edited by Philip Coates
on 11/16, 8:08pm)

Post 5

Wednesday, November 16 - 8:10pm

Link

Edit

Phil,

I totally agree! Since many of us will change our careers during our lives, I guess that means we become totally different people when we take a new job. NOT!!

Jim

Post 6

Wednesday, November 16 - 8:48pm

Link

Edit

Phil:

"At least Rand was closer when she said "tell me what a man finds attractive or who he sleeps with...". Romantic attractions tell you much more than the garbage in this silly "fake wiseman" quote."

I agree.

I have a friend who works in a factory. It's the type of factory where there's a lot of capital investment per worker, so his income is quite high. Yet still, he only classes himself as a factory worker. Now, he has a wife and two kids, and a mortgage and all the other usual commitments. So that's where most of his money goes.

What does that tell us about him? Not much.

I like him because he's a decent man. He looks after his children well, worries about their future, and he loves his wife who's beautiful and intelligent. He's not pretentious and can spot bullshit a mile off. He's honest and his word is his oath.

That's not some feign homage to the "common man" because in today's world my friend is becoming less common by the day.

Judge a man by the company he keeps, the ideas he espouses and his degree of self-respect. If you can't get a full picture from that then you're blind.

Ross

Post 7

Thursday, November 17 - 11:03am

Link

Edit

In defense of McCracken for saying this and myself for posting it, I must say that I agree with the gist of his quote.

A man who makes his living as a liar, a moocher or a looter is quite different from a man who makes his money as a producer. Any productive occupation, be it inventor, factory worker, etc. stands in stark contrast to an unproductive or destructive one, e.g., an "unrewarded artist" who must live with his parents because he will not face certain basic facts about himself and his occupation.

Likewise, a person who spends his money on caring for his loved ones stands in stark contrast to one who lets his children starve while he feeds his addictions to gambling and other wasteful habits.

Cash flow statements tell stories about values. I stand by my decision to post this quote.

Post 8

Thursday, November 17 - 12:03pm

Link

Edit

Luke,

If someone is unproductive, they will pay the price as a natural consequence of the behavior. My condemnation or approval will add nothing meaningful to the situation. Now, if someone is actively predatory or irresponsible that is a different story. A simple, polite no usually suffices to moochers unless you've built up a relationship with someone like that to begin with.

I can remember looking for work directly out of chemical engineering graduate school and for a time (until I faced the reality that the oil business stunk at the time) I was decidedly unproductive. Should I have been ashamed of myself? What would that have solved? Would someone have been justified in casting aspersions on me (not that I would have cared)?

One thing I will agree is irresponsible and immoral is voluntarily taking on obligations you cannot meet. So back to the example in the quote, if I retired at 50 and spent money on high adventure rather than building steel mills or computer chips, would that really reflect on my character?

Jim

Post 9

Thursday, November 17 - 12:16pm

Link

Edit

Luke,

I will stand by it too. I see the quote as a rule-of-thumb and not a philosophical "all-or-nothing" identification of the outward manifestation of a corrupted or heroic soul.

As all-or-nothing, it is easy to debunk, since it leaves out too many philosophical essentials. But as a rule-of-thumb, it is a very good one, since it does deal with one essential: a person's preferences in a universal area of social life - personal finance. This is a good general reflection of a person's choice of values.

Within the context (financial advice), I believe McCracken was providing a rule-of-thumb - not a philosophical absolute.

I sincerely wish there was more room in Objectivist people's heads for things like rule-of-thumb and common sense - not as a replacement for sound principles, but as an addition to them (including intelligent consideration and proper hierarchical placement).

Objectivist philosophy is supposed to be used for living, yet too many Objectivists have no use whatsoever for rules-of-thumb and common sense. I suppose that this is one of the reasons Objectivism stands on the sidelines of the world and lets religion run hog-wild. Religions have no problem in considering such things like everyday living and how to deal with it.

Many Objectivists, though, apparently think that this is "facile" or superficial.

I personally do not like that type of mentality.

Michael

Post 10

Thursday, November 17 - 12:50pm

Link

Edit

Many Objectivists, though, apparently think that this is "facile" or superficial

Yup. Brought to you by the folks who figured out how to use the word "facile" in a derogatory fashion... :)

Post 11

Thursday, November 17 - 2:03pm

Link

Edit

MSK,

This isn't being presented as a rule of thumb, though. Look at the third sentence:

You will have a searchlight that shows up the inmost recesses of his soul.

I don't think you can know this about a person from how they make or spend money.

Jim

Post 12

Thursday, November 17 - 2:12pm

Link

Edit

Well, it sounds like to me that he was ripping off the AR quote and got a little precious in his language.

I don't look so much as what someone does, but how they work. As far as what they spend their money on, yeah, that can tell you things. I think these days it's mostly on high-priority bills, though, which isn't real sexy stuff. By the time the various federal and local gods get theirs, and I pay all my stuff, I find myself feeling guilty about changing my guitar strings as often as I do.

rde
And no, boiling them doesn't work that's an urban legend.

Post 13

Thursday, November 17 - 3:15pm

Link

Edit

> A man who makes his living as a liar, a moocher or a looter is quite different from a man who makes his money as a producer. [Luke]

Yes, but that's not what the quote says...or even implies.

>I sincerely wish there was more room in Objectivist people's heads for things like rule-of-thumb and common sense [MSK]

Me too.

But you've chosen the wrong quote to use if you wish to make this point.

Here's how to start to 'fix' this quote and make it a non-sloppy one: instead of how he earns and spends, make it more specifically whether he believes he has to earn it, be productive, etc...Words have an -exact- meaning: Say precisely what you mean to say, not something which merely resides in the same county. Find a better quote instead of defending to the death a non-competent one --- there are books full of them.

Phil

Ross I found your concrete example of the factory worker quite moving! Thank you for that post.

Post 14

Thursday, November 17 - 6:33pm

Link

Edit

I don't know, guys. I think context plays a great part in where a quote comes from.

For example, take the phrase, "Kill that motherfucker!"

Context 1 - A football game, talking about the other team's quarterback.

Context 2 - In the middle of a war, when an enemy soldier has been seen in an attack position.

Context 3 - A man in an act of love, pointing to a specific part of his body.

Need I go on?

//;-)

Personally, I took the context of the quote Luke posted into account when I evaluated it.

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 11/17, 6:36pm)

Post 15

Thursday, November 17 - 7:57pm

Link

Edit

Yes Michael. It must be context because I personally don't have the fetish described in #3 and I'm guessing most men don't :)

- Jason

Post 16

Friday, November 18 - 5:19am

Link

Edit

Michael, am I going to have to learn how to resurrect the dead? I sure hope not. //;-)

Making and spending money is just one of many things that gives insight as to a person's values. I work in an office and pay a mortgage, does that tell you much about me? On the other hand, I am certainly not impressed with these store clerks and such who make minimum wage and waste money getting elaborate manicures every week. Glamour nails are so ghetto and show a complete lack of priorities. Who one partners and socializes with is even more telling... what they read, where they shop, where they live..... all kinds of things tell you about a person.

Marketers use geographic data for segmentation into consumer groups to target at the zipcode level. It is rather interesting. PRIZM divides the U.S. consumer into 15 different groups and 66 different segments. Below is a sampling of the information provided for each group and segment:

Post 17

Friday, November 18 - 5:20am

Link

Edit

In all fairness to the critics here, I will confess that while I agree with the statement,

"Get to know two things about a man. How he earns his money and how he spends it. You will then have the clue to his character,"

the remainder does show all signs of excessive extrapolation:

"You will have a searchlight that shows up the inmost recesses of his soul. You know all you need to know about his standards, his motives, his driving desires, his real religion."

That said, I agree with MSK that this still serves as an excellent rule of thumb for evaluating the characters one meets.

I completely disagree with Phil that such knowledge tells me "absolutely nothing" about the person's character. Following a person's money trail tells me much about his daily decisions and, more deeply, his values that drove those decisions and, to "the inmost recesses of his soul," his character.

Evidently we have some irreconcilable differences here the arguing about which leads to rapidly diminishing returns on investment for me. I think I am finished with this thread. I will close by saying that I agree with the statement by Charles Givens in SuperSelf that money is simply "green energy" for achieving goals in alignment with one's own chosen values. By consequence, how one acquires and spends that "green energy" will tell me a great deal about his values and thus his character.

Post 18

Friday, November 18 - 5:23am

Link

Edit

For example, take the phrase, "Kill that motherfucker!"

...
...

...Context 3 - A man in an act of love, pointing to a specific part of his body.

Geez, guys have asked me to do some pretty strange things, but that's one I've never heard before.

;o)

SmS

(Edited by Summer Serravillo on 11/18, 5:24am)

Post 19

Friday, November 18 - 5:55am

Link

Edit

"Glamour nails are so ghetto and show a complete lack of priorities"

Hey, now, Kat! No need to get vicious. Are you calling my glittery tiger-striped nails ghetto!? :-)

I work for a company that sends out door-to-door interviewers (yes, still today!) and use PRIZM codes to buy sample for them, and it is amazing how much populations change in a couple of years. We think we are sending them into Low-Rise Living and give them a $5 incentive and then the interviewer arrives to find Young Digirati's sitting around drinking $9 coffee. But the descriptions are a never-ending source of mirth for all.