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Post 40

Friday, August 5 - 1:58pmSanction this postReply
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Let me reiterate a point that many are missing: James and Barbara are not being blocked. If they wish to return to post on SOLO, all they have to do is say that they wish to stay.

"Leaving and being blocked are two completely different things."
 
Actually, they're really not all that different. When you leave, you stop posting. When you get blocked, you stop posting. Getting blocked shouldn't be a big deal to someone who has actually left.





Post 41

Friday, August 5 - 2:13pmSanction this postReply
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Jody,

Any word on whether Barbara or James would be willing to ask to come back?




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Post 42

Friday, August 5 - 2:14pmSanction this postReply
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Hardy,
What did you mean by "this" in the phrase "don't let this bullshit get in the way"?

Jody,
I think its pretty clear that you used the 'f' word (force) to give the impression of injustice. Ethan Dawe did a fine job debunking your attempt to mislead, which earned my sanction. If you were not trying to mislead, then please state so. Do you think Joe etc. have the right to prevent people from posting on their own site? What do you think would be the best thing to do in this situation?

All,
I hope for reconciliation... only time will tell.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 8/05, 2:30pm)




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Post 43

Friday, August 5 - 2:54pmSanction this postReply
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Andrew, can you clarify this:
James and Barbara are not being blocked.
It seems to me that most people here agree that they in fact ARE blocked from posting and are rightly so since SOLO owners can do whatever they wanted.

Ethan,
You said "He (Linz) is, however, entitled to behave however he wishes, and benefit or suffer from the consequences of that behavior."

I hate to disagree with you. But I don't think anybody is entitled to unjustly insult other people.

I think before we properly address the problem that had lead to the leaving of James and Barbara, it's unfair and hypocritical to say that things are simply up to them. 




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Post 44

Friday, August 5 - 2:59pmSanction this postReply
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As incendiary as any post that a someone associated with Mr. Valliant’s book always seems to be here, at least I am an “outsider” to all of this. There are a few things that any reasonable observers cannot fail to miss.

SOLOists are frequently rude, insulting and abusive. The whole point of this website is serious discussion. Ms. Branden has every right—indeed a solid argument—to quit SOLO on this basis.

Linz’s verbal abuse certainly pissed off James K. and Ms. B., but they were not content to let that be that. Instead, on their way out the door, they publicaly accused Linz of being an “alcoholic.”

To conjecture that it was the “alcohol” talking--not the “real” Linz—when the insults flew, is not a sufficient reason to post such a conjecture. Nor are any of the pseudo-benevolent reasons of loving and Caring for Linz a good reason to post it. Even if Linz is an alcoholic (for which no evidence has been presented), there was no good reason to post it.

The quite certain effect on Linz’s reputation was the designed effect, obviously, not the more speculative hope of “helping” Linz, as any Objectivist-egoist should be able to see immediately. It was a “parting shot,” precisely because they were “gone”--outta here--as they introduced poison into the system.

It had no chance of “helping” (they even now admit that their private efforts to get his attention about this failed—so going public with it would?!) No, it was designed to discredit Linz and anything he might say about them in the future.

The fact that Linz allowed it to be posted is no defenseJames K. had done everything he needed to do in order to get it posted. His wrongdoing was already in the bag at that point. (No, it’s not defamation, Linz approved its publication, but it WAS an invasion of privacy—again, as no Objectivist audience should need to be reminded.) 

Should Linz have allowed it to be posted? Well, if he had done anything else—suppressed it with no comment, or suppressed it with a denial—then the rumor would have the INCREASED aura of credibility because of Linz’s alleged “suppression” of it. Linz was in a Catch-22 the minute that the article was submitted. One could argue that Linz was compelled to post it.

Does Linz’s abusiveness have a point? Usually, it does. Does it get worse when has had a couple? Who knows? But, more importantly, WHO CARES?

When Linz insults, it is in a substantive post. Their post was all about someone's  “personal problem.” Why the hell was it ever submitted?

Besides, James K. and Ms. B. are shown to be utter hypocrites: in effect they complain about the personal abuse and insults even as they walk out the door with the yell, “You drunk!” Thus, they commit the very sin they complain about Linz committing—even as they shut the door on his face because of it. Linz at least was complaining about foreign policy or the defense of those who advocate child-molesting when he got mad. They did whole special post just on Linz himself.

Also, what precisely was the reason to guage Linz’s alleged problem with that terminology? Did either James K. or Ms. Branden really have the goods to say THAT?

Or, is it simply their “way” to suggest things of a negative character about former friends with whom they have had a falling out? In Barbara's case, at least, there IS evidence of this kind of behavior.





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Post 45

Friday, August 5 - 3:06pmSanction this postReply
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It's a beautiful day here in Montana. There's a golf course waiting for me after work. My band is rehearsing this weekend, and I've got a date on Saturday night. Optimism! Fun! Life! And then I go to check on the latest haps at SOLO, and what do I find? A bunch of people passing around a shit sandwich and chewing on it. Jesus effin' Christ, folks, let's move on. I really do admire and appreciate all of you, a bunch of intelligent, creative, funny and principled people who share a common, secular love of life and all its possibilities. I want Barbara and James and Linz here, but in the end ... goddammit, let it go.
Remember: Optimism! Fun! Life! Sex! All that stuff!



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Post 46

Friday, August 5 - 3:07pmSanction this postReply
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Listen up, ya crybabies. No matter how genteely put, they called Linz an alcoholic and said they were leaving. Now you're gonna give Andrew shit because they have been shown the door? AS far as I am concerned, let them send Joe or Linz a very nice request to come back--THEN they can come back, if Joe and Jeff and Linz allow it. But for my dime, a public apology, just like the public accusation, ought to be forthcoming.

Be aware of people who are oh-so-proper. They are hiding something--themselves.



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Post 47

Friday, August 5 - 3:09pmSanction this postReply
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The last people I care to hear from are second-stringers from the anti-Branden crusade.  Ugh.



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Post 48

Friday, August 5 - 4:01pmSanction this postReply
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The last people I want is to hear from are obliquely insulting twats who assume I am anti-Branden/anti-James just because I take exception to their garbage public accusation against a 'friend' and then act put-upon when they don't have free access to a forum they've said they're leaving. Ugh.



Post 49

Friday, August 5 - 3:51pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Schiff's last post is a great example of why Ms. Branden is justified in leaving: no substance, just insults.

Do you guys never tire of providing more ammo for your critics--more perfect examples?



Post 50

Friday, August 5 - 4:20pmSanction this postReply
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"The Magenta Hornet", why do you waste your time posting at a place you would describe as "of no substance, just insults"? Why don't you leave as well? Thank you.

(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 8/05, 4:21pm)




Post 51

Friday, August 5 - 4:40pmSanction this postReply
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Dean-
You said "I think its pretty clear that you used the 'f' word (force) to give the impression of injustice. Ethan Dawe did a fine job debunking your attempt to mislead, which earned my sanction. If you were not trying to mislead, then please state so. Do you think Joe etc. have the right to prevent people from posting on their own site? What do you think would be the best thing to do in this situation?"

How was I trying to mislead? I do think it was an injustice. That being said, as I thought I had already made clear-yes, emphatically yes, Joe etc. have the right to do what they wish with this site. If I wake up tomorrow and it's been changed to the Organization for Collectivism, then that would be their right. What I disagree with is WHAT they did, not their right to do it. Regardless of whether or not Barbara and James(whom I've always disagreed with re: what he did) stated they were going to leave, the simple fact of the matter is that they had not done so yet. They were then blocked and Joe etc. just left it for us to beleive that they had indeed made good on their threats to leave. I also want to add to this that many people had attacked at least James for "tossing a grenade" then running. The fact is that there was still an issue on the table that Barbara and James were involved in and they were still addressing it as well as those who were attacking them for it. I am not going to get into what I think of James here(though my posts regarding his article were very negative), but I will say that I think Barbara deserved better than that. Please also bear in mind that much of my anger came at a time when I thought Andrew had been deceptive. Andrew has since said that when he made the comments he made that he was unaware that they had been blocked. I believe him and I've told him I was wrong in accusing him of being deceptive in that instance. If "force" was the wrong word to use, I believe it pales in comparison to using "blocked" as a synonym for "chose". Regardless of what Barbara said she was GOING to do, she had not left us yet, she was BLOCKED.



Post 52

Friday, August 5 - 4:42pmSanction this postReply
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Scott-
No, I haven't had any communication with her aside from the email she sent me. I responded, but I assumed that she was no longer granted the use of SOLO email.



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Post 53

Friday, August 5 - 4:48pmSanction this postReply
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And I wish to iterate that this post was about how Joe, etc. dealt with Barbara. It is not about Linz, not about whether he is or is not an alcoholic, not about whether James was right or wrong in what he did. I am not trying to insult anyone, I am asking for a rational justification(again, let me spell it out-no I don't think they HAVE to give it, they own the damn site. I'm just asking that they do.) for the manner in which Barbara was treated.



Post 54

Friday, August 5 - 5:00pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Gores,

You ask: "Why do you waste your time posting at a place you would describe as 'of no substance, just insults'? Why don't you leave as well? Thank you."

Such an "open" place! Such an inviting place! Such a welcoming forum for Free Speech!

There are many possible motives, if you give the matter some thought, of course, but your suggestion is well-taken, indeed. However, so long as there are such "open" and inviting discussions going on, why not? Depends on your idea of "fun," I guess.

But, seriously, if you read my post you will see that it was clearly responding to "Mr. Schiff's last post" as A "great example" of why someone would want to leave. Thus, I wasn't attacking all and sundry, just those who find the shoe fitting... ahem.



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Post 55

Friday, August 5 - 5:07pmSanction this postReply
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I will state this point one last time; those who have ignored it before are free to do so again:

 It is not the same thing as "blocking" for us to expect James and Barbara to express a desire to return before they are allowed to post here. Hell, we aren't even demanding an apology, as Scott in Post 46 rightly says ought to be forthcoming. If James or Barbara says, "Okay, I want to return to SOLO and post again," we will let them. Even if it is only to write "See, look, he's a drunk!" after every one of Lindsay's posts!




Post 56

Friday, August 5 - 5:13pmSanction this postReply
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Hornet-
When you say of this place that it is "of no substance", by implication you do insult us all.
Also I can't speak for Joe, but I don't think this place was ever intended as a forum for "free speech." Ideally, your speech is protected from government censorship, not Joe's censorship.



Post 57

Friday, August 5 - 5:15pmSanction this postReply
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Andrew-
If they are trying to post at SOLO isn't it implied that they "want" to post here?



Post 58

Friday, August 5 - 5:22pmSanction this postReply
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Oh, Mr. Gomez, and here I thought that what distinguished you guys from those ARI-types was the "open" thing. Sorry, my mistake. And do I need to repeat that all I spoke of was an "example"? Others have claimed it to be the norm--Ms. Branden won't tolerate it directed at her from the founder and guiding spirit of the "place," or something--but I have not said so. Nor, do I think that I would go as far as Ms. Branden did in insulting the whole "place," and everyone in it, as it were.
(Edited by The Magenta Hornet
on 8/05, 5:24pm)

(Edited by The Magenta Hornet
on 8/05, 5:26pm)




Post 59

Friday, August 5 - 5:24pmSanction this postReply
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Hornet-
Notice "Jody" is spelled with a Y-chromosome, so it's Mr.



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