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Post 0

Tuesday, September 27 - 6:34amSanction this postReply
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That explains a hell of a lot about both the US and the demon-ridden Middle East.



Post 1

Tuesday, September 27 - 8:12amSanction this postReply
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I'm sure this breathrough article will be of great use to the world.

All that needs done is tell everybody to not do that, on any level. Religion=bad. We say so. The statistics say so. Reality itself says so.  If you are doing it in any form, please stop now.  

My minister is going to shit when she finds out she has to hang up the spurs.




Post 2

Tuesday, September 27 - 8:45amSanction this postReply
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And if you have to do it, please do it in private behind locked doors and wash your hands afterwards. Public prayer should be more of a taboo than public masturbation.



Post 3

Tuesday, September 27 - 8:56amSanction this postReply
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Actually, I think part of the real problem can be found going on behind locked doors . The handwashing we can only hope for.

rde
Never sang in a choir and ain't about to start now.




Post 4

Tuesday, September 27 - 9:25amSanction this postReply
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These facts have been long known from county-to-county and state-to-state comparisons in the US. The usual explanation is that poverty is a common cause of both religiosity and crime. I wander, though, how much cause-and-effect is the other way around: literalist religion -> defective cognition -> poverty ->crime etc.



Post 5

Tuesday, September 27 - 10:34amSanction this postReply
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Adam, my heart softens at your words... you said literalist religion. Yay! All black people don't steal TV sets- just the bad ones. :)

As to your other-way-around, I don't think so- I've never seen much of that and I've been in all the right places to see it. Actually, a lot of them do better for themselves- I guess discipline is discipline even if it's maniacal. Fundamentalists tend to whip people into shape- otherwise,they aren't of any use, bro.

I've had a straight year of working in East Cleveland now, too. EC is the poorest city in the county where the 12th poorest city in the country is. It's a war zone.
I know lots and lots of the religious leaders and watch all the action. Them, the streets, how it all works. The bottom line is that the conventional churches (around here that's usually some kind of basic evangelical black church) try to help in many ways, which include doing what they can to stabilize family situations, and address core personal problems, which predominantly involve but are not limited to substance abuse, absentee fathers , broken homes, and domestic violence.

And, it is not enough. There are some liberal, altruistic groups (well, on the surface they present as such) that honestly think that the key is to simply get donations from people like me, and my business, and infuse people with it. This, of course, is silliness. I don't mind religious outreach, but you gotta play smarter and cleaner than that to get past me.

The crime, and the poverty come largely through the unprincipled, and the undisciplined. Generally, this is their choice, and they are as resistant to going to church as they are to filling out employment applications. Sad, but fact.




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Post 6

Tuesday, September 27 - 7:18pmSanction this postReply
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The crime, and the poverty come largely through the unprincipled, and the undisciplined. Generally, this is their choice, and they are as resistant to going to church as they are to filling out employment applications. Sad, but fact.
I have to agree with Rich on this. When the same type of equation is applied to liberty or Capitalism, I believe the rest of you would be as outraged as I. Example- Capitalism caused the Great Depression. As much as I disapprove of religions tactics, practicing Christians may not make good politicians but they generally make good neighbors. I live in the home of the Southern Baptist convention and I can say that their altruism and mysticism is more evident than their bad credit, unwanted pregnancy, crime, or STD's.
One of my commie ex-girlfriends was ranting to me about the evident hatred for the poor and black the Bush administration has shown in New Orleans following Katrina. She was fully informed by the Michael Moore web site. It was complete with the notion that the tax cuts for the rich have diverted the capacity to serve the victims in New Orleans. This is even after my presentation of information implying economic growth and increased government revenue following tax cuts. My guess is that most of the good God fearing church goers of New Orleans had enough sense to high tail it out of town before the storm.
I wanna be first in line to fight against religious intrusions and to promote reason, but crying wolf in this situation only makes the rest of the arguments that Objectivists have carry less clout.





Post 7

Tuesday, September 27 - 8:09pmSanction this postReply
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Did this study include Islamic states?  I would think an Islamic country like Iran would be a much better comparison yardstick than the United States as far as a religious country is concerned.  As has been pointed out, most of the people contributing to the statistics on violent crime and sexual disease are typically not very religious.  And most Americans who consider themselves religious lead largely secular lives.  In the Islamic countries, though, most people really mean it.  In general, I don't think this study did an effective job of isolating religion as the main variable responsible for the disparities. 



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Post 8

Tuesday, September 27 - 8:23pmSanction this postReply
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Am I the only one who sees that this so-called study is a bunch of horse-shit?  These are not arguments an Objectivist should support:

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies. “The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.” Gregory Paul, the author of the study and a social scientist, used data from the International Social Survey Programme, Gallup and other research bodies to reach his conclusions.
First - He only takes some "factors" but does not relate them in any way to people who worship religion.  He simply takes (unknown and likely biased) stats and presumes a connection.  Umbrellas cause rain, anyone?  Second, the US is not "the most dysfunctional developing democracy" - that is utter shit and does not belong in objective science, either.  He is a goddamned social science asswipe.  In fact, I understand Scotland has the highest rate of violence because of "booze and blades"
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1486837/posts

Basically, this is just shit - please confine your arguments to things that make some sense, Ok?  This is POMO Wanker shite.

did I mention this was shit enough times?

(Edited by Kurt Eichert on 9/27, 8:24pm)




Post 9

Tuesday, September 27 - 10:14pmSanction this postReply
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Pete, I'm a scientist at heart -- ie. I have in my possession a printed copy of the study! You asked:

==============
Did this study include Islamic states?
==============

Unfortunately ... no. Page 9 of the study -- lists the countries involved (a pretty 'western' mix):

Australia
Austria
Canada
Denmark
France
Germany
Great Britain
Holland
Ireland
Italy
Japan
New Zealand
Norway
Portugal
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
United States

Ed






Post 10

Tuesday, September 27 - 10:28pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt, your shit-ridden post makes a good point -- this is bad science. However, the REASON that this is bad science is due to bad epistemology (a point you left vague, in your shit-soaked, all-American rant).

A mere "eyeball" test of the graphs (social disparity vs. religiosity), shows that the correlation coefficients (the level of step-wise exactitude of the "tracking" of social disparities -- with religious beliefs) could not have been strong; with the twin exceptions of overall life-expectancy and 5-year old mortality rates. Using the eyeball method, overall life-expectancy and 5-year old mortality rates appear to be so correlated that they would pass off as statistically significant.

However, the correlation coefficients, and related "p" values, are not provided in this study -- instantaneously making the study an instantiation of pseudo-science. Nevertheless, the mortality vs. religiosity correlation appears quite strong -- and begs for an explanation.

My money is on the high death rates galvanizing religious belief via psychological coping mechanisms. Think about losing every other child that you have ever had -- before they got a chance to reach the age of 5 (this approximates infant mortality in many 3rd world countries). Now contrast that with the hope that these lost younglings have merely moved on to an afterlife. This, to me, is a formula for religiosity.

However, I believe that now that the egg is around, it will hatch into a chicken -- and the cycle will spiral downwards (ie. religiosity will prevent social advancement, the very advancement needed to "save" those countless young "souls").

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson
on 9/27, 10:30pm)




Post 11

Wednesday, September 28 - 4:33amSanction this postReply
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Matthew Graybosch:  Jesus said that twhen you pray, pray at home, alone, in a closet, and do not pray out loud in the streets and synagogues the way the hypocrites do.
(See Matthew 6:6)




Post 12

Wednesday, September 28 - 4:38amSanction this postReply
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Bill Sipes wrote: "I live in the home of the Southern Baptist convention and I can say that their altruism and mysticism is more evident than their bad credit, unwanted pregnancy, crime, or STD's."

Perhaps that is literally true: the problems are not evident.  These people might do a good job of keeping it all very quiet.




Post 13

Wednesday, September 28 - 4:48amSanction this postReply
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Kurt Eichert asked rhetorically: Am I the only one who sees that this so-called study is ...
No, you are not.  The matter is somewhat complicated.  The favored nations are socialist states, of course.  They have substituted one religion for another. 

One reason that they lack "problems" is that they lack energy.  The people don't act out or act up because they just don't act at all.

Also, there was apparently no metric for "religiousity."  In other words, as above regarding the worship of the state in those other nations, it would make sense to define religion and then apply the test to see which cultures (nations, states, geopolities) are more or less religious.

Another problem I had was the definition of "society."  Given that we live in a "global society" how is Denmark not part of the United States in any way that Hawaii is or is not?  I live in Ann Arbor and I have no direct awareness of New York City.  To what extent are we all in the same "society"?

Perhaps religion is good for societies. Is it also good (or bad) for individuals?  How would we know?




Post 14

Wednesday, September 28 - 4:51amSanction this postReply
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Matthew Graybosch pointed out: " That explains a hell of a lot about both the US and the demon-ridden Middle East."

Yes, as Ayn Rand noted, the bloodiest wars are civil wars between advocates of the same principles.




Post 15

Wednesday, September 28 - 5:00amSanction this postReply
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Australia, Austria, ..., France, Germany, ... Italy, ... United States.
Hmmm...  Now if we correlate crime with theft and murder and we recognize that taxation is theft and war is murder, then where are we with this?


 




Post 16

Wednesday, September 28 - 5:41amSanction this postReply
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And murder is the ultimate theft - seems theft is the bottom line when you add it all up...



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Post 17

Wednesday, September 28 - 6:07amSanction this postReply
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Marotta, I'm familiar with that verse. I throw in the face of Christians who bitch about how their precious little patron demon is being exorcised from public life.

PS: I became an atheist not by reading Ayn Rand, but by reading the Bible.



Post 18

Wednesday, September 28 - 12:21pmSanction this postReply
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In general, I don't think this study did an effective job of isolating religion as the main variable responsible for the disparities. 
 
Nope. It appears to be bad science. Bad science, possibly done in the course of what sure as hell looks like a fishing expedition.

A more interesting question would be to ask Luke what his purpose was in posting the article. My experience to date is that Luke has a particular agenda which involves discrediting and blaming pretty much anyone or anything which is not atheist. "Religiosity," whatever the eff that is, if it is anything more than a label.

There are those in Objectivism who consider religious thought to be one thing, to do one thing. Like saying that all black people steal TV sets. I don't believe that anyone can see into the mind of another that well, for one thing.






Post 19

Wednesday, September 28 - 4:03pmSanction this postReply
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It is hard to say which is worse, religion or cigarettes.  One thing, though, in defense of religion, is that it is not the same for everyone.  We know well that there are Objectivists who memorize and regurgitate the words of Ayn Rand. For them, Objectivism is a religion.  On the other hand, there are people who enjoyed the works of Ayn Rand and ask questions, both about the world around them, but also about the ideas in the books. 

It is obvious that some people benefit from religion -- and do so in ways that resonate with Objectivism.  Gaining self-esteem is critical to being responsible for your own life. Religion can provide that.  Objectivism is one religion that does.  I find that people who seek religion are different from those who inherit it. 

Perhaps it would be valuable to separate societies into those with a high proportion of seekers and those where existing social modes are accepted. 

Also, we Americans like to think well of ourselves as a culture or a nation.  The fact is that we have 0.75% of our population in prisons.  Do we have a "crime problem" -- or do we have an enforcement problem?  One of the reasons for this is religion: some people think that God mandated them to tell everyone else how to live.

You can blame the putative "leaders" but if you want to blame anyone, just grab the next person you meet -- or look in the mirror.  I did not speak up when they came for the drug dealers, because I do not deal drugs.

That was why I questioned the study.  Religion might be  good or bad for "societies" (however defined) whether or not is good or bad for individuals.




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