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Post 0

Thursday, October 6 - 9:22am

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Does Machiavelli make a good point.
In a world that is less than perfect, is it folly to act morally?When dealing with the vicious, must not one be as cunning if not more cunning than they?

Post 1

Thursday, October 6 - 11:16am

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One does not defeat monsters by becoming one, Ciro.

Post 2

Thursday, October 6 - 11:44am

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What you do then Matthew?
(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 10/06, 11:44am)

Post 3

Thursday, October 6 - 11:51am

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In a vicious society, I'd make like Atlas and shrug. Against a vicious individual, I'll avoid him if I can, and beat him into the ground if I must. But if I have to fight, I'm not going to do more than I have to.

Post 4

Thursday, October 6 - 3:20pm

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I couldn't have said it better, Matthew.

Andy

Post 5

Thursday, October 6 - 3:24pm

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Ciro, you ask:

In a world that is less than perfect, is it folly to act morally?

Our world has always been less than perfect and always will be. Utopia is not in the cards. So let me get socratic on you and suggest you ask yourself: What need is there for morality in a perfect world?

Andy

Post 6

Thursday, October 6 - 3:29pm

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Context, context, context - why is this an "imperfect" world? Why is this notion of "perfection" always so Platonic when addressed, as if coming from geometric circles and spheres - conveniently omitting that conic sections are equally "perfect", thus for instance "perfectly" describing the orbit of the earth around the sun... [or am I being too obstuse here?]

Post 7

Thursday, October 6 - 7:01pm

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Andy do you mean that in a perfect world we don't need to make choices, and don't need values?

Post 8

Thursday, October 6 - 7:52pm

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In a perfect world everyone would act accordingly, so rules etc. become meaningless, as they are not tested.

Values and morals are needed, but don't expect anyone else to follow yours. Be your own superhero!

Post 9

Thursday, October 6 - 8:10pm

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Ciro, I think that deceptive or violent actions are moral in certain contexts. In cases in which it is known that a specific person is an amoral social metaphysician or is a known initiator of violent action it is acceptable to use such tactics against him to either thwart him or to send him a message that you aren't to be ****ed with. However, these occasions are very rare.

In most cases (especially in a free country) the best option is to avoid contact with these types. The paranoid view that all men are amoral and manipulative power lusters and thus making the decision to take on these same traits is viscously cynical and is the mentality of humanity's most evil, irrational and dangerous people.

- Jason

Post 10

Friday, October 7 - 12:51am

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Ciro,-

The message of The Prince haunted me for a long time. People are stupid (not least of all right here on this forum) and there are marketing formula for milking that stupidity. Our politicians and bureaucrats attend junkets we pay for to learn how to do it and we can watch them practise their art on television interviews any day of the week. Our Prime Minister, Helen Clark, was coached very nicely in this art by a media personality of our Perigo's calibre & association, Brian Edwards. She knows how to talk the talk and put the spin on things and get through a 30 second spot without actually saying anything. So do all the good political animals. If you get a question you can't answer you say "I'll take advice on that as and when it is available". If you have a story you don't want to be news then you make sure you control the timing- make sure the story comes out at the same time as an even bigger story so people will be distracted. Drop the story at the end of a news cycle. Wait to see if we win the rugby, wait for Christmas holidays and then dump the trash- unless you want it to be the lead story. The womans' mags and tabloids will celebrate a new wedding for 4 or 5 seconds, and then start tearing the couple apart. Happy couples don't sell. If it bleeds it leads- every news night. And then every news night ends up with a fluff story like elephants have learnt to paint or a puppy found its own way home. And people eat it up, fall for it every time.

What can we do to get the truth out about reason and rights? Shun the message of The Prince? Shun the biased media? Shun suits and get around in scruffy 'More Freedom, Less Government' Tshirts? Bang your heart against the mad buggers' wall of lies? We have reason, they have fog. Reason may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. That's why fog is winning and reason is loosing, we're not showing people we're right via the rules Machiavelli first laied out.

Show 'em the old razzle dazzle! It's the only way to get to people. But there is nothing in the usual facade that makes a libertarian or Objectivist more true, more believable or more dependable. Our adversaries dress up their lies in just the same way we dress up our truth. We cannot buy anything they cannot buy. Flags, music, rich and reasonable announcer voices, trumpets, cosmetics, smart suits, good advertisements, good humor, celebrity endorsements, good parties.....what advantage in the telling does the truth bring? Does it bring 'the ring of truth'? But PR companies can make lies ring. They're very good at it- the people will not know the difference...

...Except that you are right and they are wrong, you are truth and they are lies. If you study Machiavelli you can break even. If you then push that advantage given to you by Objectivism then, ceteris paribus, that must surely tip the balance your way. Such is my vain belief.

Post 11

Friday, October 7 - 2:31am

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This thread speaks about living rationally in an irrational world. This is one of those "Ed" moments (where something was said, which struck a deep chord with Ed). Read on at your own risk/benefit.

The way I see it, an entire slew of quotes are needed to realize that there actually is one right answer to this question ...

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One has not the right to betray even a traitor. Traitors must be fought, not betrayed. --Charles Peirre Peguy
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There are more fools than knaves in the world, else the knaves would not have enough to live upon. --Samuel Butler
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We have no more right to consume happiness without producing it than to consume wealth without producing it. -- George Bernard Shaw
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Many are stubborn in pursuit of the path they have chosen, few in pursuit of the goal. -- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
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To be happy, we must not be too concerned with others. -- Albert Camus
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Living well is the best revenge. --George Herbert
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One must be something to be able to do something. -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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People often say that this or that person has not yet found himself. But the self is not something one finds, it is something one creates. --Thomas Szasz
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One does what one is; one becomes what one does. -- Robert von Musil
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In the long run, men hit only what they aim at. --Henry David Thoreau
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All that Adam had, all that Caeser could, you have and can do ... Build, therefore, your own world. --Ralph Waldo Emerson
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There is in man an upwelling spring of life, energy, love, whatever you like to call it. If a course is not cut for it, it turns the ground round it into a swamp. --Mark Rutherford
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He makes no friend, who never made a foe. --Alfred Lord Tennyson
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The applause of a single human being is of great consequence. --Dr. Samuel Johnson
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A man's character is his fate. --Heraclitus
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Remember: One lie does not cost you one truth, but THE truth. --Christian Friedrich Hebbel
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Weak people cannot be sincere. --Francios, Duc de La Rochefoucauld
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Better make a weak man your enemy than your friend. -- Josh Billings
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If we escape punishment for our vices, why should we complain if we are not rewarded for our virtues? -- John Churton Collins
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The mind's direction is more important than its progress. -- Joseph Joubert
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An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come. --Victor Hugo
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Men are not punished for their sins, but by them. --Elbert Hubbard
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Who overcomes by force hath overcome but half his foe. --Joe Milton
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Sorry for the repetitiveness, but the question demands a decisive answer. Consider the opposite, where we are unsure whether or not to stay a moral course -- because others don't. Others aren't the issue, we are.

Ed

Post 12

Friday, October 7 - 7:43am

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Robert M,

You ask why I call this an "imperfect" world. Nothing Platonic about it. I mean nothing more than no one is perfectly rational and plenty of us are entirely irrational. Of course, this world is perfect in the sense that it is precisely what it is and so there is no room for improvement on that score. But I think we can agree that perfect defined that way drains a lot of the utility out of the word.

Ciro and Donald,

Donald got the gist of what I meant by my question to you, Ciro. If all of us were perfectly rational no one would even think of injunctions against murder and theft. These crimes would be concepts entirely alien to us. In fact, I wonder if crime would be a concept in such a world. By illustrating this utopia as an answer to my question, I was making the point that, pace Machiavelli, moral conduct is an imperative in an irrational world.

Andy

Post 13

Friday, October 7 - 9:14am

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Jason, Matthew, and some of Ed's quotes at some point you all seem to quote what Machiavelli said:"...how we live is so far removed from how we ought to live, that he who abandons what is done for what ought to be done,will rather learn to bring about his own ruin than his preservation. A man who wishes a profession of goodness in everything must necessarly come to grief among so many who are not good(Just like Rick said). Therefore it is necessary for a prince who wishes to maintain himself, to learn how not to be good (ED Traitors must be fought, not betrayed. JASON:send him a message that you aren't to be ****ed with. However, these occasions are very rare.
MATTHEW:beat him into the ground if I must), and use this knowledge and not use it, according to the necessity of the case.

Post 14

Friday, October 7 - 9:32am

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Matthew: One does not defeat monsters by becoming one, Ciro.

How would you fight terrorism for example?.
How do you beat these people to the ground as you say?
by shrugging?
I know how mafia was fought in Italy! not certainly by shrugging .
Search the Internet names like Giovanni Falconi,Generale Della Chiesa,
etc... you will find out what these people had done in order to fight evil !
We never realize of our vulnerability until we look into the devil's eyes.
I appreciate you intelligent comments all the time!
Keep them coming
Ciro

(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 10/07, 9:34am)

(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 10/07, 9:45am)

Post 15

Friday, October 7 - 9:48am

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Andy let me be more socratic on you. I turn the question back to you:
What need is there for morality in a perfect world?

Post 16

Friday, October 7 - 11:13am

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Giovanni Falconi? Italian mobster? If I'm not mistaken, this is the guy who currently runs the Jehovah's Witness Protection Program (he's either the CEO -- or the number 2 man -- at the Watchtower Society in New York).

Ed

Post 17

Friday, October 7 - 11:23am

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Ciro,

The point of my quotes was a reiteration of Matthew's point about monsters. I missed the key quote (go figure!):

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Never let man imagine that he can pursue a good end by evil means. Any other issue is doubtful; the evil effect on himself is certain. --Robert Southey
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The answer is to be honestly assertive in seeking value from others. In cases where this can't happen, either move on OR become honestly aggressive with them. In cases where this can't happen, either run for your life OR become honestly hostile to them. In cases where this can't happen, take their very lives from them.

Notice how you never lie down and take it (that would be AT LEAST as evil as initiating force on others).The sliding-scale approach is necessary, in order to protect one's esteem and sense of integrity.

Ed

Post 18

Friday, October 7 - 11:23am

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Sometimes Machiavellian solutions are right. When I say so. :)

rde
Wondering where he can get more of those strangely disturbing JW comic books.

Post 19

Friday, October 7 - 12:00pm

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Ed, you got the wrong Falconi
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Giovanni_Falcone

Giovanni Falconi? Italian mobster? If I'm not mistaken, this is the guy who currently runs the Jehovah's Witness Protection Program (he's either the CEO -- or the number 2 man -- at the Watchtower Society in New York).

Ed

The �mafia� stigma associated with Italian Americans continues to exist today. The power that a myth or rumor can generate is alarming. The fact that time cannot expel such propaganda is one more example of how ignorance can breed violence and discrimination against a single group of innocent people. It is abhorrent how a few corrupt individuals can destroy an otherwise respectable image. Do people choose ignorance in order to justify their blind ambitions? Is prejudice easier than taking the time to understand? Is power and money the ultimate goal in life? Let�s hope not.
La Storia has succeeded in telling the �true� story of the immigrant experience with extraordinary feeling and insight. It conveys an important message to all nationalities. We must be proud of our heritage. To deny who we are is to deny ourselves and our ancestral place in history. Assimilation of Italian Americans has been a long and difficult road. Today, ethnic origin is no longer a deterrent to success. With each generation the torch is passed, and it shines more brightly with every succeeding generation.

Sometimes Machiavellian solutions are right. When I say so. :)
Rich, isn't that true? lol

(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 10/07, 12:32pm)

(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 10/07, 12:51pm)

(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 10/07, 12:52pm)

Is Machiavelli right?