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Post 0

Wednesday, October 5 - 7:48pm

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I'm trying to compile a list of Objectivists who have actually taken the philosophy and applied it in a way the mirrors the degree of heroism found in The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged. In your respective opinions, who is the highest achieving Objectivist other than Rand? The criteria for such a person is someone who has made a lasting and significant contribution in their field, and is also a self-described Objectivist. Libertarians and 'Objectivist-friendly' types don't count.

Post 1

Wednesday, October 5 - 8:15pm

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Fred Smith and Fed-Ex ?

Post 2

Wednesday, October 5 - 8:52pm

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Ed Snider of Comcast Spectator and the Philadelphia Flyers?

Alan Greenspan?

Post 3

Thursday, October 6 - 1:27am

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Robert Efron, the father of cognitive neurology.

Post 4

Thursday, October 6 - 8:42am

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Monroe Trout, James Kilts, and John Allison

Post 5

Thursday, October 6 - 10:51am

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The "big three" in regard to intellectual as opposed to business accomplishments are:

Nathaniel Branden, Leonard Peikoff, and David Kelley.

Each of the three has written more than one book which either adds to or applies Objectivism to another field (epistemology, psychology, the virtues, history of ideas, the entire philosophy in one volume).

Each has taught a number of good courses. There are other Objectivist intellectuals, but these are the top three in terms of actual accomplishments.

Phil
(Edited by Philip Coates
on 10/06, 10:53am)

Post 6

Thursday, October 6 - 11:38am

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Philip, I would scratch Leonard Peikoff off of that list. His book is useful but I would not call it a great accomplishment. To the list I would instead add George Reisman, who's work in his own area (economics) far out shines comparitively the work done by Leonard Peikoff who is merely decent at writing summaries. I think that VAST improvements can be made in comparison to OPAR if a better mind were to decide to take up a similar project in the future.

- Jason

Post 7

Thursday, October 6 - 4:58pm

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In composing a list of high achieving Objectivists, I would include comics creator Steve Ditko. He is perhaps not the highest achiever among all Objectivists but he is the highest achiever in his field of comics creation.

(Edited by Bob Palin on 10/06, 4:59pm)

Post 8

Thursday, October 6 - 8:49pm

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Jonathan Hoenig (www.capitalistpig.com) appears on Foxnews a lot. That's pretty successful.

Alan Greenspan seems like a good answer to me.

Glenn, who are those people?

Post 9

Thursday, October 6 - 11:37pm

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Jason,

Good point about adding George Reisman--I don't know why I forgot him: His masterpiece "Capitalism" is an intellectual achievement of the highest level...and not just in economics!

It is a model for how to treat -any- discipline in an integrated, scientific, unitary, and thorough way. And that is something no other Objectivist intellectual has done.

As for Peikoff, his level of achievement is not reducible to the most recent book. He has made contributions with not just OPAR but with Ominous Parallels, and with the best sustained series of important and valuable courses (ranging from the history of philosophy, to logic, to grammar, to communications, to thinking skills, and so on)of any Objectivist intellectual.

Phil

Post 10

Sunday, October 9 - 3:28pm

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Bob I'd have to say no to Ditko. As much as it pains me. But the success of the spider-man movies did get Objectivism a little free publicity so I might be wrong.

I just wish this guy was as rich as some of the guys who got famous working on his characters.

---Landon

Post 11

Sunday, October 9 - 3:39pm

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The reason that Ditko may not qualify as highest achieving Objectivist is his secrecy and isolation that borders on martyrdom, his failure to promote his work or do interviews. That's putting aside the artistic achievement, of course.
(Personally, I think Ditko was at his peak on Spiderman, but his style of art, while being perfect for the original Spiderman, and Dr. Strange,is too limited to achieve much beyond his stories of black and white morality tales. Lack of subtlety and versatility. It is a very distinct style, to be sure. But he lacks the storytelling skill of Stan Lee, and his style doesn't match the ability of John Romita, which does not seem as dated as the 50's era style of Ditko.)

Post 12

Sunday, October 9 - 4:21pm

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I think he really came into his own on the later spider-man stories (such as the one Bob posted a panel from). But his DC, Charlton and Independent work is really underrated.

He basically did the same character for three different publishers, tweaking it slightly each time with The Creeper, The Question and Mr. A. But with each one he was able to bring something new and different and create interesting plots. I don't usually fault him for dialogue it wasn't a skill he was trained at and usually he wasn't even writing his own. I also don't fault him for this tactic because it just gets downright silly how many times Joe Simon and Jack Kirby created Captain America. Because it was next to impossible to retain ownership of your creations back then a lot of guys did that and at least Ditko added a new twist each time.

But his straight science fiction (Shade the Changing Man and many of his independent stories) I think would've worked better in different mediums because the stories were strong, and there just hasn't been a good market for straight science fiction in comics since the 50's. I'm thinking a Shade tv show or film series might have been great.

His martyrdom has hurt him quite a bit, but I still think his style is valid... even more so that many of his contemporaries. Kirby was only capable of drawing 2 faces (male and female) and Romita's stuff just shows his romance background too much. And Lee was more of an editor and a pitch man than anything. A lot of what made Lee look so good was the tension and arguments that took place between him and his coworkers (for example of what happens when no one takes him to task, see the "Just imagine" series).

His martyrdom probably did hurt his bargaining power. Kirby could pretty much go anywhere, do anything and people would still publish it (example see the "Fourth World" series). Hell he didn't even believe his message could be smuggled in behind the bargaining power of an industry giant (In the Will Eisner/Frank Miller book Miller gives a story of how he tried to talk Ditko into collaborating on a Mr. A project which he knew he could sell to any publisher he took it to).

But even as recently as the 90s he took part in the emergence of a major independent company (Jim Shooter's Valiant Comics). But when it comes to Marvel and DC anymore he rarely takes any work other than extremely low profile mini-series. If he could get over the hermit like behavior he could be even more successful, but that is ultimately his choice and as an admirer I respect it.

---Landon

Post 13

Sunday, October 9 - 6:34pm

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One high-achiever who is not explicitly an Objectivist, but one who deserves much more mention around here is Robert Ringer. He acknowledges Ayn Rand's influence publicly.

NY Times Best Seller list several times.

A style all his own - not imitation anybody, especially Rand.

Michael

Post 14

Sunday, October 9 - 6:58pm

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Landon and Joe,

Yikes! You're talking about my hero and the individual who first motivated me to read Rand.

The purpose of an individual's life is the pursuit of one's own values. That is exactly what Ditko has done with his life and done it well. He has stated that what he always wanted to do was create comic books. He values his privacy and does not want to share personal information about himself with the world. So he creates comics and maintains his privacy.

Landon, don't measure Ditko's success by how much he has done to spread our shared philosophy. I don't believe promoting Objectivism was a primary goal for Ditko though it was clearly a secondary goal. He has stated over and over again when asked for biographical information and personal interviews that he would prefer that his work speak for him, that he enjoyed creating comics and he hoped his readers enjoyed reading them. I don�t think it is a stretch to imagine Ditko paraphrasing Howard Roark and saying, �I don�t create comics so that I have readers, I have readers so that I can create comics.� Also, there are more ways to measure wealth than simple net worth statements.

Joe, in my opinion Ditko is the greatest comics creator ever. No, he is not the greatest writer or artist ever to create comics but he is the greatest storyteller ever, which is the essential most important element of comics creation. His ability to plot and tell a story visually is unsurpassed by anyone. Even before he started receiving plotting credit on Spider-man, Ditko was co-plotting the series, including adding dialogue suggestions for Lee. Lee has acknowledged that the creation of Doctor Strange was totally Ditko.

Ditko�s style is his style. Whether you like it or not is a matter of personal taste. But you can�t dispute the effectiveness of his art conveying the intended ideas he set out to communicate.

My personal favorites are �The Joker� from Amazing Adventures #5, 1961, his Blue Beetle and Question stories of the late sixties, �Social Justice� from Murder #3, 1986, �In Principle: The Unchecked Premise� (I�m unsure of original publication) and The Mocker, 1989.

Landon & Joe, I understand you weren�t attacking Ditko and I think highly of both of you and your opinions but !@#$ grumble %^&* grumble, this man is my hero as much as is Rand and he is unquestionably to me the highest achieving Objectivist in the field of comics creation.

End of rant.

Post 15

Sunday, October 9 - 8:52pm

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JEEZ!!!

Just kidding. Bob, Landon, I LOVE SPIDERMAN. My all-time favorite since I was old enough to wear underroos, and certainly no disrespect meant. Problem for me is that Spiderman and Dr. Strange are not Objectivist oriented, and if I think they are Ditko at his height, it doesn't stand as a high Objectivist achievement. As for his Mr. A and The Question, etc., they seem to be missing something to put them higher up on the comics scale (maybe the same artistic creative tension that made Lee look good; like Paul McCartney and John Lennon, their collaboration outshined their solo work. Like I said, it was my personal opinion, though I do think there are better artists than Ditko. But he certainly was integral!

(Bob, I know how you feel. Remember "Yes? NO!" ;)

Post 16

Sunday, October 9 - 8:54pm

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Bob, maybe you can explain the pupil's on Spidey's eyes? I've noticed them in that scene before...

Post 17

Monday, October 10 - 3:09pm

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Joe, I disagree that Ditko's work peaked at Marvel with Spider-man and Dr. Strange. I think his Blue Beetle and Question work at Charlton exceeded that and the Objectivist themes are clear in many of those stories. I was thrilled a few years ago to discover that the Blue Beetle story for the advertised but unpublished Blue Beetle #6 had been completed and printed in the fanzine Charlton Portfolio in 1974. I managed to locate a copy and read the story thirty years after first seeing it advertised. And it was delightful.

Ted (the Blue Beetle) Kord: "Tracey, most people aren't interested in truth or fact! Even if it's presented to them , they don't want to judge for themselves, especially if it goes against what others believe! They'd rather go along with what others say or popular opinions. It's safer for them! Left on their own, they'd rely on their likes or dislikes or feelings...anything but reason and logic! They live in a world of reality but choose to see and accept illusions. They create their own deadly specters, blindly accepting invisible, unproven beliefs that terrorize and rule their lives!"

His Mr. A stories varied in quality but there are some real gems among them.
Mr A: "JUSTICE recognizes a man for what he is and treats him accordingly. MERCY treats the guilty better than he deserves. The GUILTY cry for MERCY; the VICTIM asks for JUSTICE. MERCY can only be granted to the GUILTY at the expense of the VICTIM."

(Bob, I know how you feel. Remember "Yes? NO!" ;)

Um...I don't. You'd better refresh my memory.

maybe you can explain the pupil's on Spidey's eyes?

I can only speculate. It's always bugged me every time I see that panel.

Oh, and about my rant: be happy I'm not Lindsay and the subject wasn't Mario Lanza. :)

(Edited by Bob Palin on 10/11, 4:22am)

Post 18

Monday, October 10 - 4:04pm

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Bob, to be fair, it's just my opinion, and I've never read Blue Beetle or the Creeper, so you could be right. But even if it is artistically better, I don't think they've achieved as much as Spiderman overall, their influence is more cult status than mainstream. They haven't changed the world or influenced people in a major way. And when was the last time Blue Beetle got his own underoos? Hah! And I don't think I'd want Creeper underroos...:P.
But that's just one criterion, and if they've brought you joy and insight, I'm not going to knock it. Let's agree that Ditko is an integral presence, at least.

Yes? No! was James Kilbourne's article on my recommendation of Yes. Stomped on my heart and then some... sniff...now I'm verklempt....

Lanza? Who's Lanza? Is that some Italian heavy metal band?

(Edited by Joe Maurone
on 10/10, 4:07pm)

Post 19

Monday, October 10 - 7:53pm

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Joe, my point is that a productive effort can be a high achievement irrespective of its influence on others or the popularity of that effort. Ayn Rand's We the Living sold poorly on initial release and only found commercial success many years later when re-released after the popular success of The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged. Was We the Living any less of a high achievement as a work of literature because of its initial poor sales? My answer is an emphatic no!

The same is true of Ditko's work. The achievement is in his creation of the comics, not in the popularity of those comics.

By the way, I do like Yes.

Who is the highest achieving Objectivist? (Besides Ayn Rand....)