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Post 20

Wednesday, June 1 - 10:52amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

I have not lost sight of the victim. Not by a long shot.

My approach is how to correct this "moral grayness" thing of ignoring the victim.

While we are posting right now, I was separately messaging to Kat, discussing this, and she came up with a statement so simple that it is obvious. I like it very much in practical terms. She said, "make an exception for exceptional evidence."

A legal measure like that is something that is doable. Just get the first "exception" thing on the books and a precedent is established. You can grow from there. This would also "test the waters" so to speak so that balance could be kept and adaptation to a more moral position fully implemented without causing a disaster first.

The danger is in giving free reign to criminals after the police "walk off the job" during an important part of an investigation to avoid being punished. From their view, who wants to be punished for risking taking a bullet? Their context is very volatile - it changes constantly with unknown danger. That there is one of the rubs of this matter that is still not fully addressed. To repeat, this needs to be covered before any practical solution will be entertained by our current lawmakers.

That "exception for exceptional evidence" idea needs work, but I definitely see possibilities - in practical terms.

Michael

Edit - I forgot to mention that packaged together with the "exception" concept could also be a liability of police officer, etc., part, exceptionally at first, of course, for precedent.

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 6/01, 3:07pm)




Post 21

Wednesday, June 1 - 2:57pmSanction this postReply
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"The moral alternative to excluding valid, probative evidence from fact-finding judicial proceedings is -- as Nathan rightly argues -- to hold cops and prosecutors personally accountable for their errors and for their own illegal conduct in the pursuit of evidence and prosecutions."

I agree, though I'm surprised you take such a strong stance in this case. Holding members of the legal system responsible for their misdeeds and even mistakes leads to some pretty radical conclusions, which I've generally only seen touted by advocates of privatized justice.




Post 22

Thursday, June 2 - 4:10amSanction this postReply
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Bob,

 

Thanks for your comments. It’s a pleasure to receive feedback from the author of that famous Reader Digest’s article on Willie Horton. And your work on environmentalism is exceptional -- especially the lecture you gave two years ago in NYC at an Objectivist Center conference.

 

I own and have read Criminal Justice?­, which, I regret to say, was, on the whole, unpersuasive.

 

1. You argue that the ER “punish[es] the crime victim.”

 

In letting the criminal go free, the court does not punish the victim. Punishment means infliction, and while the ER certainly horrifies the victim, it does not impose force on him. “What remarkable principles to have to be preaching to an Objectivist readership!”

 

2. “His [the victim’s] case is tossed out; he bears the residual harms of his criminal victimization, with no hearing, no retribution and no compensation. Thus he is subjected to a double injustice: both the original offense, and now the abdication of the very criminal justice system that's supposed to be working to secure justice for him.


All true and tragic -- and all necessary evils.

 

3. (“Check the stats acknowledged by Mr. Rick in his first footnote.)”

 

The stats in my first footnote are irrelevant to my argument, which is why I put them in a footnote. What’s more, I acknowledge contradictory numbers, though I found the first three more credible than those Edwin Meese cites.

 

4. “[L]et's suppose (as often occurs) that a ‘dirty cop’ breaks the rules to obtain real evidence of a real crime, and that the evidence is then excluded from the prosecution of the criminal, who goes free as a result. Who is actually punished by this? The dirty cop? Hell, no. He still collects his regular paycheck each week, and goes on his merry way.”

 

I agree that such cops should be held “personally accountable.” But I presume that if a court applies the exclusionary rule to an officer’s evidence, then Internal Affairs probably sanctions him.

 

5. We should “admit the valid evidence against the criminal into consideration...but then . . . go after those who violate the rules, in a separate civil or criminal proceeding.”

 

Admitting illegally obtained evidence is wrong -- not out of sympathy for the criminal, but because (1) when an officer does not obtain a warrant, it undermines the separation of powers, and (2) of bad-apple cops.

 

Finally, in post 1, Adam Reed questions my use of drug-dealers, pornographers, homosexuals and abortionists as the "least attractive practitioners" of a given right. I actually forget why I chose these people, but I think it related to the history of the exclusionary rule cases. On the other hand, I might have just gone with controversy to illustrate the point.

(Edited by Jonathan Rick on 6/03, 3:36am)




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