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Post 0

Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 8:57amSanction this postReply
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I just received an e-mail from Arthur Silber referring me to his most recent and much longer essay on torture:

"I think the SOLO readers might find that of interest, especially since it contains my memory of Rand's own comments on this subject. (The link at the end goes to a fuller explanation of what I consider to be the underpinnings of Rand's thoughts about this.) The recent entries also contain much more information on the non-utility of torture, about why in fact it does not work. Which, as I say, ought to really end the whole debate in my view. The fact that it doesn't is very significant, I think."




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Post 1

Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 3:13pmSanction this postReply
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deleted
(Edited by Irfan Khawaja on 10/19, 4:31pm)




Post 2

Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 9:36pmSanction this postReply
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Against an innocent victim, torture is evil... "evil" being an act of undeserved cruelty. 

But against a homicidal terrorist -- who is knowledgeable of the particulars of our imminent attack, or a participant -- such treatment is not undeserved, because the victim is not innocent, and has forced us into an inescapable position of our deaths or theirs
 
In such a situation -- where it can be reasonably determined that the individual is not innocent, I judge it to be not evil -- not to mention a "necessary evil" -- to torture such a person.  In fact, irrespective of being my judgment, for the reasons that I've just stated, I am convinced that it is objectively not evil to torture such a person. 




Post 3

Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 10:05pmSanction this postReply
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I view the torture issue in a similar way that I view the death penalty.  In principle, I have no problem with a serial killer frying, and no problem with applying to torture to extract information from a terrorist to save thousands of innocent lives.  However, once you cede such authority to government, the potential for abuse may ultimately outweigh the short term benefits.

(Edited by Pete on 10/11, 9:40am)




Post 4

Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 9:58pmSanction this postReply
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I imagine that people have an idea in their head of you the torturer and "torturee" are when then say it is a 'necessary evil' or even a good.

Let me just throw a spaner in the works here.

Is it OK for forieng countries to torture american citizens to (say) find out about American plans for military strikes. If not, why not. If it is OK - should they then be found innocent of war crimes?



Post 5

Monday, October 11, 2004 - 11:08pmSanction this postReply
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The problem of torture, in my view, is the problem of granting to government the power to order the use of torture. In the same way, although I agree that the death penalty is morally justified in certain cases, it is not only the possibility of error that makes me unable to endorse it (unless the rules were changed from "beyond a reasonable doubt" to "beyond any doubt"). A second reason is that I am very leery of granting the power of life and death to government.

Perhaps -- and I am not certain of this -- torture could be denied to government, but instead become an issue of civil (or military) disobedience. That is, if a civilian or a military person were to use torture to extract information, he would have broken the law and would be subject to punishment by law.

I'm thinking aloud, and I would welcome further discussion.

Barbara



Post 6

Monday, May 23 - 7:48pmSanction this postReply
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This one came up from the archives, and timely, too: I just finished watching the final episode of Season 4 of "24" -- the best season ever of the best series on TV, with the best hero, agent "Jack Bauer" (played brilliantly and with steely resolve by Kiefer Sutherland). For those who don't know, it follows the exploits of the L.A. division of a federal Counter Terrorism Unit (CTU), as it must fight to undo a devastating terrorist plot within a 24 hour period. Capturing terrorists and (unofficially) torturing them to find information that will help them stop the Ticking Bomb plot has become standard operating procedure on the show.

The program makes dramatically, viscerally real the possible stakes in an age of terrorism, and really puts these moral issues to the test. Some interrogation experts argue that info gained under torture is unreliable, and that may be the case. But I for one would hesitate to issue a blanket prohibition against the use of such extreme methods during extreme situations -- "extreme" being the kind of "hot pursuit," immediate-deadly-threat circumstances depicted on "24."

If you knew a terrorist act was either being planned or in progress, would you argue against using any necessary means against participants in order to stop it?

Not me.




Post 7

Monday, May 23 - 8:11pmSanction this postReply
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Your right, not to spoil it but there are few circumstances more dire then shown in the last epps of '24' and where torture is used. And it isn't used as policy, it is taken on a case by case basis.

That said however, I think:

1. Torture cannot be ruled out in any circumstance affecting national security or military affairs.

2. NOT having any policy in place is extremly dangerous as there is more of a chance of abuse.

So there needs to be a policy detailing how intergations are preformed and in what situiations. Exceptions are premitted but they need higher approval first.

Martin, to answer your question, no. We're right, they're wrong, nuff' said.

Jonathan, there still is debate over if torture works. I'm sure beating a terrorist with a stick (while probably fun) isn't the most effective way to get information. Electrical shocks, sleep deprevation, etc are probably more effective.

For me, this debate is over when you ask what should happen when we catch bin Laden. The only questions I'll have then is how their going to torture him to death and on what channel?



Post 8

Monday, May 23 - 8:24pmSanction this postReply
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I won't surprise anyone with my post on this. I'd torture a foreign enemy in a second if it would save American lives from a foreign threat.

-------------

I don't watch TV anymore, but an objectivist friend got me to watching the first season of 24 on DVD. I was hooked after the first episode and watched the entire season in three nights. I bought the second season a few months later and watched it in three nights also. I did the same thing after the third season and now, after Robert's post, am reminded again of how I can hardly wait for the next DVD set.

I can easily imagine that it is the best series on TV.




Post 9

Monday, May 23 - 8:31pmSanction this postReply
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David, let me assure you that Season 4 was the best yet. The writers expertly juggled so many threats this season, taking so many unexpected tangents, but this time leaving no dangling subplots, and resolving everything ingeniously and with tremendous emotional satisfaction.

I envy anyone seeing "24" for the first time. For those who haven't, let me strongly urge you to buy and watch Season 1 on DVD first, which establishes many important ongoing characters and relationships. If it doesn't addict you within 3 episodes, go see a doctor for a checkup. You may not have a pulse.

(Edited by Robert Bidinotto on 5/23, 8:32pm)




Post 10

Tuesday, May 24 - 11:19amSanction this postReply
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Robert, You're certainly right about the very under-appreciated quality of '24.' I thought this t'v' show was a kind of marvel to behold. Somehow, the writers and directors knew how to maintain terrific and riveting suspense thru almost every single episode. (Managing 24 straight cliff-hangers can't be easy!) Still, I was disturbed plot-wise and ethically by those four or so torture scenes.
 
This punishment and interrogation technique, in my view, should be employed only under the most extreme circumstances e.g. WMD situations. I think there should be special, expert, high security clearance torture judges required and which are available on a moment's notice. At the least, there should be very specific legal and pain procedures which have to be followed, and with only certain people allowed to perform them. The whole thing should be videotaped and carefully recorded and documented. All people involved and knowledgeable should formally sign their names to various papers, and officially state their understanding of the situation and reasons for their actions prior to torture, or as soon as possible. 
 
If it turns out the torture was excessive or even wholly wrong (god forbid) then all the people involved -- judges, police, military, politicians, their bosses, etc. -- should themselves be subject to immediate and severe torture. This should be followed by long jail terms, high fines, and job dismissal. This will make the torturers take it all very seriously and think it thru very carefully -- as they should anyway.




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Post 11

Tuesday, May 24 - 2:37pmSanction this postReply
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Nothing frosts my ass quicker and more painfully that to see an Objectivist succumb to the phrase "this post-9/11 world."

Metaphysically, do you know what changed about the world after 9/11?

Not a goddamned thing.

We have suffered exactly ONE domestic terror attack in this country, and exactly ZERO since 9/11. Yet BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of dollarsa are being spent domestically and abroad to fight this 'terrible' and ever--present threat. NOTHING philosophically important about the world has changed. Crass political motivation to move this country back hundreds of years as regards individual liberty is the major significant political change.

"If we can only defeat Eurasia, the world will be safe again."
I mean, really! The ridiculous manipulation of an information-overloaded population is shameful.

Post 9/11 torture analysis is EXACTLY the same as pre 9/11.




Post 12

Tuesday, May 24 - 4:16pmSanction this postReply
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Jonathan, the link you gave doesn't work. If you typed it correctly and thus it makes finding it needle in a haystack work, I wonder if you wouldn't mind quoting what Miss Rand said on the subject of torture. That's the part that would be the most interesting.

Thanks,

Phil



Post 13

Tuesday, May 24 - 4:44pmSanction this postReply
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"I'm thinking aloud, and I would welcome further discussion."

Barbara, my initial response to the issue of torture is that under highly extreme circumstances - such as the certainty or virtual certainty that lives will be lost if you do not - yes, but it's not a slam dunk.

You have two conflicting principles to weigh and to decide which one obtains veto power in this circumstance:

1. The ethics of emergencies. Normal standards go out the window when, for example, nuclear weapons are about to go off in cities. Then it's what Miss Rand somewhere called a 'metaphysical emergency' - as in a lifeboat which can only hold two or at most three, but there are four people trying to get in. Someone's life is forfeit metaphysically, so normal ethics logically can't apply. As I think she said somewhere, ethics is not a suicide pact.

2. The great danger of what you refer to - granting government the precedent of a totally new and horrendous power. A power which can snuff out opposition, lead to dictatorship, erode freedoms and thus an *even greater disaster* than the lives lost in even a nuclear explosion.

Disastrous precedents matter- sometimes more than lives.

The only answer is that you have to weigh the context and application of the two principles in the case at hand. And maybe your solution - punishment of the person who uses torture - is a strong enough disincentive to prevent situation #2 from arising. But we've watched disincentives and checks and balances against government expansion broken one after another for 200 years.

Certainly at least, if the claimed terrorist is only suspected of having the information to prevent the deaths but turns out not to have it, punishment of some kind would be appropriate, I think.

But this is a gray and bleak (and not crystal clear to me at the moment) area.

[ Obviously if the situation is a Hollywood movie Armageddon, principle 1 applies. If your country is destroyed or heavily damaged you either don't have to worry about dictatorship or wartime loss of freedoms may occur in the wake of catastrophe. ]

I do think that it being a -metaphysical- emergency and Rand's quote that "morality ends where the point of a gun begins", and normal rules break down is a key here...

--Philip Coates
(Edited by Philip Coates
on 5/24, 5:02pm)

(Edited by Philip Coates
on 5/24, 5:04pm)




Post 14

Tuesday, May 24 - 4:57pmSanction this postReply
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I disagree with Scott that this terrorism scenario is not a real problem. The fact that we've prevented post-9/11 attacks doesn't mean they haven't been attempted -- and they only have to 'get lucky' once:

We have two deadly things coming together: the world's worst religious fanatics and or power lusters who want to inflict the maximum innocent deaths they can (see Iraq) -and- technological advances which begin to put weapons in the reach of groups rather than just nations which can close a major port or kill tens of thousands and make a city radioactive for centuries.

Evil + (biological, nuclear, dirty bomb) Weapons + Intent means the captured terrorist scenario is very real, very possible.

In fact, it may have already happened.

Normally I don't waste time debating what Rand properly scorned as "hanging by your fingernails" over a cliff scenarios. That's not the role of philosophy--it is to provide guidance for normal life.

But in this case the cliff, the abnormal is here due to the massive, criminal incompetence of America's leaders for the last fifty years.

--Philip Coates



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Post 15

Tuesday, May 24 - 6:31pmSanction this postReply
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Phil: "I disagree with Scott that this terrorism scenario is not a real problem."

Phil, its not really so much that I do not think it is a problem. We are shy two buldings, billions of dollars, and 3,500 American lives to prove that it is a real concern. What I object to is one instance of domestic terrorism leading to what it has, in its political implications for Americans. Is terrorism a threat? Obviously. But does recognizing that fact give the crisis-mongers leave to take as much of our tax money and infringe as much on our rights as possible? I'd submit, and this info is all over the place, that some of the most dangerous sites in America go unprotected, while corporate entities with the correct connections get filthy rich by overcharging the Federal governemnt for such useful anti-terror items as bullet proof vests for canine police units. I forget the figure, but the Feds spent an enormous sum on this one ridiculous piece of garbage that has no practical effect whatsoever on my safety, your safety, and does nothing to secure our nuclear power plant,s or that 3 miles trip in New Jersey that would poison the entire East Coast if attacked properly.

As to the issue of what MIGHT have been attempted, and thwarted, by our anti-terror efforts...I have very little faith that any terror activity could be attempted and thwarted without massive media attention--either intentional or unintentional. Breaking a 'secret' terrorism story would be bigger than the Michael Jackson trial, so the profit motive woudl ensure that we heard about (over, and over, and over, and over). The current administration would LOVE to thwart a massive terrorist undertaking, thereby justifying taking more rights, and squandering more tax dollars. It drools over the prospect of that PR opportunity. The guy with the explosive gym shoes and the single-prop lost civilian airplane over Washington are two examples of how ANYTHING related to terrorism is all over the news. The friggin media knew about the plane over Washington before the President did.

At end, you and I can agree that terrorism is a grave threat. But just because we are doing SOMETHING doesnt mean that the something that we are doing has any reasonable relation to what needs to be done, and what we actually need to be doing to make America and safer and more free. I don't think practically strip searching a 90 year old Irish woman, or doing the same to a 72 year old Jewish woman on a flight to Las Vegas while ignoring a large group os Muslims does anything but harass and frighten America's citizens. Unless that, coincidentally, happens to be your goal, because your business partners are doing a thriving business in bullet proof vests for dogs.



Post 16

Tuesday, May 24 - 10:37pmSanction this postReply
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> "But does recognizing that fact give the crisis-mongers leave to take as much of our tax money and infringe as much on our rights as possible?...some of the most dangerous sites in America go unprotected..." [Scott]

Sometimes true, but that's not what the thread was talking about: It was torture.

> "I have very little faith that any terror activity could be attempted and thwarted without massive media attention.... the profit motive woudl ensure that we heard about [it]".

The media have incentive to break stories, but the CIA, the FBI, NSA or their precursors kept many secrets during the Cold War. There are books about this. And there is a wall of stars in the CIA building for agents who died but the incidents can't be made public, even though the agency would look more competent if it revealed its successes as well as its much publicized failures.

Also, the media can get egg on its face, and even prosecution, for revealing national security secrets, including names, places, details, methods for combatting terrorism.

> "The friggin media knew about the plane over Washington before the President did."

Yes but not before the military did.

> "what we actually need to be doing to make America and safer and more free. I don't think practically strip searching a 90 year old Irish woman,..."

Again I definitely agree with you. But I wasn't contesting any of this, or goverments' tendencies toward error, waste, mistakes, inefficiency, lack of incentives. I was sticking to the subject of the thread---there is enough to say just on that.

Phil
(Edited by Philip Coates
on 5/24, 10:42pm)




Post 17

Wednesday, May 25 - 5:37amSanction this postReply
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This isnt really worth arguing over, since we essentially seem to be in agreement. I was simpy making the point that justifying stupid decisions and anti-liberty measures (like judging whether torture is moral) under the 'new standards' of a 'post 9/11 world' is wrong. It is a smoke screen.



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Post 18

Saturday, June 4 - 12:15pmSanction this postReply
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I am new to the Solo forums. This article by Jonathan Rick caught my attention. I do not think you can rationalize torture as acceptable in any context, even war. JR's article seems to vascillate on a firm conclusion, but I think he believes legalized torture in the hands of goverments is a dangerous slope, and I agree.

Torture is defined as "the infliction of severe physical or psychological pain as an expression of cruelty, a means of intimidation, deterrent or punishment, or as a tool for the extraction of information or confessions." (http://www.explore-dictionary.com/psychology/P/Psychology_of_torture.html)

Defined as such, I think torture is a unique form of force that aims to destroy a person's coginitive abilities and is thus evil by definition. The level of evasion that must occur on the part of the torturer to inflict such psychological and/or physical pain to an individual over a prolonged period of time is equally reprehensible. The post traumatic stresses of a soldier in regular combat (where anonymity provides some level of dignity) are horrible enough without this added perversion of an intimate initiation of force.

It is wrong to place the power of torture in the hands of government, and it is wrong for a government to ask its soldiers to commit such heinous acts. I think torture is a desperate act that shows a fundamental lack of respect for human dignity and the human mind. I don't think it is a coincidence that torture is most commonplace in countries controlled by despots. To my knowledge, the US has prevailed in almost all military campaigns without the use of torture, and this country's very moral fiber should require the rejection and repudiation of the use of torture now. This repudiation would show integrity and consitency with our pro-life, pro-liberty philosophy.

Yes, the terrorists and theocrats of Islam have been rightly targeted by declaration of war, but the US should not stoop to the level of such irrationalists and abandon all decency in the process of stopping them.

Allison Taylor



Post 19

Saturday, June 4 - 9:41pmSanction this postReply
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When men act like animals, they deserve not to be treated with any more respect than they have chosen to show..... true or false?



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