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Post 20

Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 8:44pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. GS11;
Having struggled through your articles written when you  presumably, were sober; given your writing style,  I too am grateful that you don't write when drunk!!
Truly Sir, Alcohol is bad - for you.

You're not alone Linz - I recently wrote an online really vitriolic letter to the Sydney Morning Herald while somewhat tired and emotional and fed up with its' constant Anti-American anti-Iraq War stance.  Somewhat to my horror, they published it!! 

Cass Hewitt-Reid




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Post 21

Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 11:02pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Don't get me wrong.  It's not easy to see a man deteriorate to that state.  What angered me was that things didn't have to turn out that way.  He could have done something but he chose to look away.

The problem with evasion is, he could have himself convinced that there was no problem for indeterminately long.  Then one day, when the problem in
question had grown to a size that no amount of evasion could obliterate, the revelation would be too much, too quickly.  It would seem like the world was collapsing around him and he wouldn't even know what went wrong.  That's why evasion is so damaging.

Evasion, which is not a virtue, is the predominant factor that led to the alteration of his character.  That's why it took one incident, rather than a progression of events over time(which would point to his virtue of integrity), that broke his spirit.  And I think the deadly consequences of evasion is the real lesson to be taken away from this story.




Post 22

Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 1:15amSanction this postReply
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JJ,

When you say "evasion", do you mean that this man could have just taken his family and left the country?  Was that really an option at the time?




Post 23

Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 2:30amSanction this postReply
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Regi, Jeremy ...

Boys after my own heart. Of course, I suspected Stoly had a drinking problem - namely, *not* drinking. Wouldn't you know it? Perhaps I *have* judged him too harshly. The poor uptight boy probably just needs a glass or two of a good red wine. Someone should tap him on the shoulder & let him know that wowserism causes anal-retentiveness & many types of cancer!

Linz



Post 24

Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 9:10amSanction this postReply
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"The poor uptight boy probably just needs a glass or two of a good red wine."

Or even a good stiff glass of Russian Black vodka?




Post 25

Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 10:05amSanction this postReply
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Okay JJ, I think I'm beginning to understanding the unique merit of your perspective here. The wisdom in your position can be illustrated with the popular Straw-that-broke-the-Camel's-back analogy.

When you say:

"Evasion, which is not a virtue, is the predominant factor that led to the alteration of his character.  That's why it took one incident, rather than a progression of events over time(which would point to his virtue of integrity), that broke his spirit."

Then, corresponding to the analogy, each act of evasion is a piece of straw; adding burden to his shoulders - until a single, small, and relatively inconsequential event had finally knocked him over (or "broke his spirit").

Which leads into your summation:

"And I think the deadly consequences of evasion is the real lesson to be taken away from this story."

But JJ, even now, with this clear and sufficient understanding of your view (respond if this evaluation is unexpectedly inaccurate), I find enough idealism in it to prevent the optimal attainment of joy for human beings on the whole (the "Galt" complex).

I think you are still holding this man to a standard that is too close to omniscience (projecting our understanding of his life - which is relatively omniscient - onto him). If it were determined that this man had read the books that you and I have, then perhaps this harsher-than-this-context-dictates-is-optimal judgement would be appropriate.

For proper moral judgment of others, we must make sure of 2 things:

1) that they mean well

2) that they have been exposed to the pinnacle of philosophical understandings (Rand, etc) that have objectively raised the bar for humanity

Ed





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Post 26

Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 10:57amSanction this postReply
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Orion,

It doesn't have to be specifically the decision of leaving the country right away, although he might arrive at that point eventually with accurate evaluation of his world.

We are talking about a real person in  a real-life situation.  What could he do to best serve his interests?  Be aware of his surroundings, have knowledge of what's going on, how things are evolving, whether the state and trend align with his short-term and long-term goals?  What are the current options?  What options would he like?  Anything he could do to seek out or create opportunities?  What can or cannot be changed?  Find like-minded people for support and networking.

Of all the above, the most important part is, he needs to be very in touch with reality upon which all other actions are based.  Unless he does, he wouldn't know what real options he has, he wouldn't be on the lookout for opportunities should they arise, he wouldn't be able to compare his own goals against the evolving environment and make a call; he would let the world slip him by until doors are shut one after another.

For the father in the story, if he had been willing to face reality, that alone would have saved him.  The incident of the birthday cake would have been at most an incremental degradation of his world, but consistent with his knowledge of it.  And as we saw in the story, once he understood his reality, even at that late stage with all that happened to him personally, he was able to turn things around for the better by getting his family out of the country.




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Post 27

Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 12:15pmSanction this postReply
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JJ,

From what I've heard about communist regimes, everyone is controlled through constant fear to rat out anyone else for non-communist sympathies.  Do you really think it's possible to do the sort of choosing and networking you describe in that kind of culture? 

Not to jump the gun, but I'm inclined to think those options you describe are really only possible in a country such as ours.




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Post 28

Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 2:54pmSanction this postReply
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First of all, I think this article was well written.

I'm not quite sure I see the point. If it was to show how communism destroys people's ability to create wealth and really live their lives, I think it did a good job.

If the point was to show how communism crushes the human spirit, I didn't think it worked. The father is portrayed as a blind, irrational optimist. He's aware of the bad government, and hopes they'll go away. And this part in particular was interesting:

"(their property taken, all their possessions sold for food, my mother's brother executed, and endless other indignities)."

I have to agree with JJ that it seems like evasion here. Long before he loses his job he should have known he was being ruled by petty thugs. You don't have to read Atlas Shrugged to know what thugs are capable of. Being optimistic when it comes to thugs is suicide. And he had a family to take care of.

JJ's point about the final straw is an excellent one. How else would a birthday cake destroy a man? I'm convinced.

Did he have an alternative? Yes...no evasion. Evasion is dangerous, and he was already in a dangerous situation. He didn't have the "luxury" of being able to invade. When you live in a prosperous country, with plenty of opportunities, and general good-will among people, you can afford to evade without it killing you immediately. But if you evade in an emergency situation, where your life is on the line, it is the worst thing you can do. And that's where he was.

If he had acknowledge his situation (but not accepted it), he could have acted appropriately to improve his condition. He would know that he either has to fit in, or escape, because nonconformity is going to be punished. It sounds like he had all the information available. He wasn't deluded into thinking Castro was nice, for instance. But he refused to apply that knowledge to his own life, until it was too late.

Ignore the fact that the birthday cake broke the man. Did his life get substantially worse because of his evasion? The point that his spirit broke because of that event is true, but was the event led to because of the evasions? He should have known that refusing the university job, or insisting that his daughter not join the club when the government cares enough to send a thug, that he was playing with fire and that there would be consequences.

Okay, so maybe he was irrationally optimistic. Is that so bad? You have to try to live, even when the conditions are not optimal, right?

But then after all of this, when he does escape to America, his sense of life doesn't come back. He destroyed it. It's as if the choice was between irrational optimism and irrational pessimism. He doesn't look at the new land of opportunity and evaluate that. He continues on believing what he believes regardless of the evidence.

That's the sad part of this story.





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Post 29

Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 10:47pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Rowlands, 

I would like to once again thank everyone for his or her comments and input. I have refrained from commenting myself, in order to view where the current conversation was going. Let me state from the onset, that my knowledge of the events is limited to those that I have already given in the story, since as I stated before, I never touched upon the subject again with my friend. That said here is my take:

First of all, I do not view the father as a blind irrational optimist – a joyous and optimistic man he was, but blindly so?  There is a historical perspective here that must be taken into account. Castro’s revolution had not just moved Cuba from Democracy to Communism, but from a Militarist Semi-Republic to Communism. Antonio has already lived his entire life under a corrupt and semi-dictatorial government.  What Castro did was take away the prefix ‘semi’ to the word dictatorship. To give you an analogy; it would have been as if Mussolini had been replaced by Joseph Stalin. I believe that it was within this context that Antonio would utter, “a chance for Cuba to finally find its soul”. Remember that in April of 1961 Castro had been in power less than a year and a half, and had only recently declared Cuba to be a Marxist-Leninist state. Antonio may have believed (as did many Cuban intellectuals of this period) that the harsher and far more totalitarian regime of Castro would be the ‘tipping’ point that would ignite a genuine revolution to establish a democratic republic. I am making an assumption here – but no more so than some of the assumptions that many of you have made as well.

Secondly, there is Antonio’s brother involvement in anti-communist activities; my friend never indicated to me whether or not his father was, or was not involved in his brother’s activities. However, it is not a leap in logic to assume that he was. In fact his pervasive optimism even after the horrors of Castro’s regime were becoming apparent, may have been a result of an unrealistic expectation of a pending counter-revolution or at the very least a popular uprising leading to dramatic reforms. The early years of Castro’s regime were spent ‘weeding out’ those that would not submit, and it was not until the Bay of Pigs fiasco in March of 1963 that the majority of the Cuban populace resigned itself to the idea of Castro’s dictatorship as a permanent state of affairs.

In spite of Antonio’s wife’s belief that the ‘birthday cake’ incident was his break point – I do not agree. I believe that this incident took on a greater importance than it should have because it was the last time she saw her husband as a ‘feeling’ and expressive human being. That same night he is taken away to a ‘re-education’ camp. Once again lets take in the historical reality of the time. During the early years of Castro’s regime his slave labor camps were modeled after the ones existing in the Soviet Union. They were a combination indoctrination/slave labor camp. Bearing in mind that his arrest was for complicity in anti-communist activities, one could reasonably assume that his first few weeks of arrest were spent under ‘soviet style’ interrogations for information and/or the mandatory ‘confession’. His wife's statement that when he returned 9-months later, he was, “... shattered, both physically and mentally”, tend to confirm this and lead me to conclude that he had been severely tortured for quite some time.

The stoic, harsh, and brooding man that returned was not the result of any ‘evasion’ from reality, or a choice to “believe what he believes regardless of the evidence”, but the product of a brutalized and traumatized mind and body. Once again, I am making an assumption here – but no more so than some of the assumptions that many of you have made as well – and an assumption that in my opinion is far more probable. Anyone who has ever spoken to a concentration camp survivor (I have) will quickly learn that a human beings spirit can be so severely battered that many times, when the horror is finally over, all that is left is a shell of the former person. The more sensitive, optimistic, educated and perceptive the person was in the first place – the deeper and more life affecting the damage often is. It is estimated that over 14,000 Cubans were executed during Castro’s first 3 years in power, and over 90,000 thousand others were tortured and interned in camps for some period of time.

As to why I wrote this story, well let me say that when it was first told to me I was very moved. For me the story was an example of the crushing effects of any prolonged exposure to tyranny to even the best of men. It was Mr. Setzer who most closely identified my second reason when he stated, “… a picture of tragedy and triumph -- tragedy over the father's loss of his optimism and triumph in gaining a better life for his children.” - except that I would say that what was murdered in Antonio was not his ‘optimism’, but the very thing that makes optimism possible: his joyous sense of life. 

Sincerely,

George W. Cordero

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 8/12, 10:48pm)

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 8/12, 10:54pm)

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 8/12, 11:51pm)

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 8/13, 1:46am)




Post 30

Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 11:08pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

I am not one to give folks undeserved breaks - and I think that my activity in this forum portrays this point eloquently (for a recent example, see the "justice" I did to Mr. Barnes).

Joe, speaking of Barnes, wouldn't you admit that his characterized (categorical) behavior is different in kind - and not merely degree - from the characterized behavior of the man in this story?

What I'm looking for is justification (or the complete lack thereof) for an empathy with this man's trials in life. This man didn't have issues with working hard, for instance (a common vice of humanity) - he would've worked his fingers to the bone, if need be. He had firm convictions, too (and made a tremendous effort not to explicitly contradict them).

I agree that, when every aspect is weighed for value, the greatest loss is his premature spiritual death, but like Bones once said to Spock (and I'm paraphrasing): "Damn you Vulcan, with your green blood and cold logic, don't you have a sympathetic bone in your body?!"

Joe, while I end this post in jest, I hope you have taken the earlier points to heart (or mind ... ugh ... whatever!)
Ed



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Post 31

Friday, August 13, 2004 - 1:45amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Ed Thompson,

Your comments throughout this thread hit upon a particularly common error of many objectivists – myself included. Let me relate a story using my own poor judgment as the example.

My wife was born and raised in Germany. As a result we visit her family in Dortmund once a year. Around 10 years ago (about 2 years into my delving into objectivism) during one of these visits, my wife introduced me to an uncle she had never met before due to his having lived in the former Communist East Germany.

The gentleman was well educated and spoke flawless English. He seemed thrilled when he learned that I was an American and immediately began speaking to me. He told me how much he admired the United States and all things American. He told me what an inspiration America was to so many people in Germany, and how many of the American ideals were the same ones that he espoused when he was active in a small anti-communist cell during the '70s. The man seemed to be bursting with delight at being able to talk about his personal struggle for ‘freedom’ to an American. His image of America caused him to assume an automatic bond between himself and any American he met.

During the course of his speaking, he told me about the evils of the Erich Honecker government, and how much the East Germans had been made to suffer. At some point while he was describing the ideals of the anti-communist cell he was in, he told me that they were a group of people dreaming of the day when Germany could finally be free and enjoy the benefits and rights of a ‘socially conscious democracy’. Upon hearing the words, “socially conscious democracy” my hypersensitive objectivist alarm went off. When I asked him what he meant by that, he described a type of government that would make John Kerry smile and Thomas Jefferson weep.

In those days I had 2 favorite words: evasion and inevitable. I wish I had a dime for every time I alienated a person with these 2 words. I lectured the man on the evils of social democracy, and how it must ‘inevitably’ lead to Communist dictatorship, besides not to recognize these facts was a massive ‘evasion’ of reality. The cherry on the cupcake was when I said how social democracy was in no way equivalent to the American ideal that he said he respected so much. In simple terms, I was a complete and total jackass!

In the intellectual ivory tower I had created for myself I could not fathom the mans ignorance. The ignorance however, was all mine. In the tradition of many novice objectivists (and some old time ones as well), I was not thinking contextually. If every aspect of the mans conduct or ideals didn’t fit my perfect little world – then he had to be an evader, and the results had to be 'inevitable'.

Never mind that to advocate for Social Democracy in East Germany was a crime – a crime because in spite of the mixed economy half-socialist/half-capitalist theme of Social Democracy – it would have been a gigantic leap forward in freedom for East Germany, as it is now under a unified socially democratic German Republic, in spite of the ‘inevitability’ of my arguments. Never mind that the man risked his life for a modicum of the freedoms I take for granted. Never mind that the mans ideals, however flawed, were inspired by the American dream. Never mind that I was speaking to a genuinely heroic man that had been thrilled by my very presence as an American, - oh no – I had to crap all over it didn’t I – he wasn’t the John Galt of revolutionaries! What was it you said, Mr. Thompson – ‘The John Galt complex/syndrome ‘ – very well put.

Trust me when I tell you that I know that Social Democracy is a terrible compromise, and a great step down from the ideal. Trust me when I say, that I despise those socially democratic trends within my own country, and advocate against them, and yes it can lead to a socialist state, - or worse, in extreme cases even an outright tyranny. That said, within the context of that mans experience and body of knowledge, the Social Democracy of West Germany was a by-product of American influence and the ideal to be fought for – and you know what, within that context – it is. I had taken the axiom of a single objective reality, and used it as a means for context dropping. It was my excuse for minimizing or trivializing the experiences of all of humanity, it blinded me to greatness, benevolence and the poignant; a false and irrational standard was used, and all else was ‘evasion’.

George W. Cordero

PS: I long ago apologized to the old gentleman, and we are great friends. By the way, he is now a free market advocate and strongly opposed to German participation in the EU. Well, well wouldn’t you know it – the old gent seems to still be quite a remarkable man. I guess it was inevitable!

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 10/21, 7:32pm)




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Post 32

Friday, August 13, 2004 - 8:21amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Cordero,

Once again you have moved me with a beautiful, enlightening story. You strike me as a man that I could listen to for hours, perched up and leaning forward - so as not to miss one word. Perhaps around a campfire (roasting marshmallows) - at some Montana Mountain-Man Objectivist retreat (or some such event).

Thanks for sharing - in such an artistic, attention-capturing way - the insight and understanding that you have amassed in your years. Few lessons are learned so fast and effectively as those which you seem to exhibit with a wellspring of experience - retold with such contagious, benevolent overtone.

Ed



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Post 33

Friday, August 13, 2004 - 5:57pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

As George has mentioned, you can interpret the story in another way, in which case it is more tragic.

But either way, it's tragic. A man's life is crushed, and his hope is wiped out. His sense of life is broken. Of course their's room for empathy there.

THe John Galt Syndrome, if I understand you, is judging a man based on the standard of John Galt, which is too harsh. But there's another related mistake. And that's attributing too much heroism to a man because you feel empathy for him.

He sounded like he was a hard worker, competent, and dedicated to his values. Those are admirable qualities. But if the theory of his evasions are true, then he was just a regular guy. He wanted the good life, and when obstacles got in the way, he tried not to let them discourage him. He just did this in the wrong way. So in the end when he gets crushed, it's still sad, even if it's predictable. But the sad part is that he couldn't resolve his own problems correctly, and that led to disaster.

I didn't come away from the story thinking this was a bad guy. Instead, I thought this was a normal guy. And countless lives were crushed in a similar fashion. As I said in my first comment, the article shows how communism destroys lives.

And also I said that it didn't really show how it crushes the human spirit, because this persons spirit looked unprincipled, both before and after. It wasn't like a hero got crushed. It crushed an ordinary man, with some good qualities, and some bad qualities. Could someone with a more rational appraisal of the world maintained some or most of his sense of life? It's impossible to tell from this story.

As for the relationship of the character and other people on this forum, of course there are differences in kind as well as amount. What was the motivation of the character in his evasions? Probably to try to maintain his outlook on life, which he thought was necessary for his sanity/happiness. Other people evade in order to appear intelligent in the eyes of others, to escape the consequences of their actions, etc. They're all different.



Post 34

Friday, August 13, 2004 - 9:18pmSanction this postReply
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Joe, a satisfying response. Well put. - Ed



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Post 35

Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 1:56amSanction this postReply
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Mr Cordero,
Thankyou for your primary story, about the Birthday Cake. But even more so, may I thankyou for this last post regarding Objectivists and the lack of context in thought demonstrated by so many.  I offer it ten sanctions :-).  
This is a theme I have noticed and had trouble dealing with for some years.  Not long ago I had reason to comment to a friend that Objectivism, no less than many other movements, seemed to attract an unlovely fundementalism.  The reasons are not hard to find: you yourself were only 2 years into Objectivist readings when you made the same error - that of seeing everything, every action of every person, out of context; as believing that anything and everything can be explained wholy and solely by reference to Objectivisms' tenets. When one  has been reading, reasoning and thinking as an Objectivist for some 25 years, ones perspective alters and widens. I sometimes fear that many "narrow" Objectivists even fall into the "blame the Victim" mode; ie, you didn't think/feel/react along purely Objectivist lines - no matter the context of your situation, so your problems are 100% your own fault!  I believe that Nathanial Brandon has said a similar thing, but not as clearly and easily grasped as this article by yourself.

Your Birthday Cake story illustrated what permanent damage the  psychological abuse common to totalitarian regimes can do. (Antonios' behaviour made me think of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder - a horrific psychological condition caused by psychological trauma).

However, whilst interesting, I think most Objectivists would have been unsurprised by it. What I believe is of greater value to most readers here is your second story regarding this common fault among commited Objectivists for this may come as an unwelcome surprise to many and cause them to reflect on their own narrow perspective hopefully maturing in the process.




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Post 36

Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 2:24amSanction this postReply
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Mrs. Reid,

That was extremely kind. Many thanks.

George W. Cordero




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