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Post 0

Friday, July 4, 2003 - 1:59amSanction this postReply
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I am not sure which Country you are in, and I can only comment on New Zealand.

I had the most hilarious time attending schools in Invercargill.

Anyone familiar with New Zealand will realise that only the worst of the no-hopers, time servers and general failures would be teaching in Invercargill...and so it proved to be!

By the age of about 7 I was a Libertarian and Objectivist and spent the following decade having a ball destroying the Invercargill school system.

Every time something stupid, or left wing, or illogical was being taught, (this happened almost hourly), I immediately pounced and asked for clarification...and threw back at the Teacher the nonsense they had just said, usually to devastating and, for them, humiliating effect.

As a good Libertarian, every "School Rule" which reduced freedom was deliberately broken.

This enabled me to have constant debates, with School Principals as to the merits of the rule needing to exist at all....and naturally they could ever explain why it existed, only that it did exist and had to be obeyed. Yeah, right.

(I also broke all the rules which did not reduce freedom, just to keep my hand in and make everyones life a misery)

In my experience there is nothing more satisfying than lining up left-wingers and idiots...then hammering them, again and again and again (etc) just to see what you can get away with.
Destroying the peace of mind and sanity of these people is only what they deserve.

The reason for my posting is that I think you should send your Children along to school...with instructions to wreck havoc on the place!



Post 1

Friday, July 4, 2003 - 7:34amSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the er, interesting advice, Elijah. You sound like Lindz. Is "wrecking havoc" a boy thing? Or is it just New Zealanders?
Anyway, its good that you could hold your own.
By the way, I'm from South Africa.



Post 2

Friday, July 4, 2003 - 10:32amSanction this postReply
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Hi Betty!

I'm glad you're considering home-schooling. I very much agree with the sentiments of the article. I find it interesting how people get so defensive of public schools. Everyone I knew growing up disliked school, and was glad to get out of there. But nowadays, they talk as if it were a pleasant experience. Maybe they just have nostalgia for the days when they had lots of friends and were relatively carefree. I don't know. Is there a reason why people try to remember it being better than it was?

I think you hit upon an important point. When people judge public schools, education is not their standard of evaluation. Socialization is.

A few years ago there was this big study released, I think by the UN, determining who had the best health care systems. They used criteria like "universal access", and how much the government paid for it, etc., etc. The US was ranked about 40th. Places like Italy and Canada ranked at the top. But if you looked at the criteria for it, health was never directly or indirectly used as a standard. They didn't talk about life-expectency, access to life-saving treatments, or anything else.

Until people start judging schools (and teachers!) by the standard of education, we'll never see real progess. Only defensive remarks trying to justify a waste of every person's childhood.

Great article!



Post 3

Monday, July 7, 2003 - 5:03amSanction this postReply
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Thanks Joe - Its amazing how people accept the system (and the standards) because its the done thing.

For example, my editor's wife calmly advised him that there's no way she is getting involved in her children's education. She wants to "leave it to the experts" and refuses point blank to even teach them to read or write before they start school. (In SA, school going age is 6 or 7!)

I read a book entitled "How to raise a brighter child" which dealt with this issue, saying that the potential of increasing a child's intelligence is considerably diminished after the age of 4.

Thank god my editor doesn't subscribe to his wife's credo, as he too learnt to read and write before school! However, he is still vehemently opposed to home schooling, as he feels that children need to "learn to stand up for themselves!"



Post 4

Monday, July 7, 2003 - 5:55amSanction this postReply
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Elijah, I agree with you. Send your kids to school, by all means, but give them free rein to raise hell -- and some cherry bombs to flush down the toilets in the boys' room.

Trust me, there's nothing like a cherry bomb down the crapper to piss off the principal.



Post 5

Monday, July 7, 2003 - 6:02amSanction this postReply
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Great article Betty.

Having gone the homeschool route myself, I've encountered that similar response about 'socialisation.' I think people take offence at the idea because it offends their sensibilities about what it means to 'be part of society.' And rightly so, for you are expressing your rejection.

Fact is my own children have no problem relating to most anyone, (if that really be the concern), but I know they learn that from dealing with us (their parents).

Unfortunately, the two oldest are presently at school and the real lesson they have been 'studying' is how to deal with bullies. It came up on day one, and I admit I was surprised. My daughter has developed a great interest in boxing. That's 'socialisation' for you!

As you say, school sucked. Good to read of someone else not prepared to go with the flow.



Post 6

Monday, July 7, 2003 - 6:53amSanction this postReply
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Hey, Sam, I did time in public school and I have a hell of a hard time "relating" to people. Every boy should have the hope and empathy beaten out of him; it builds character.*

* Yes, I'm being sarcastic.



Post 7

Monday, July 7, 2003 - 7:48amSanction this postReply
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Betty, you sound like a woman after my own heart.

I had a similar experience in school. Each day of my public school life was absolute hell, and I do not exaggerate. Teachers and parents, sadly enough, do not understand, ignore the situation, or worse, even condone it. The pressure to conform was unbelievable in my school. I never could or did, and as a result experienced first hand the lovely cruelty and thuggery practiced by children from grade 1 all the way up to graduation.

Not to mention the education offered was passionless, stale and rooted in typical “read-a-chapter-have-a-quiz” crap. I barely graduated…and my IQ is up there! But as a visual learner who had to get her hands into everything, I was bored and unfocused. They call kids like that ADD these days. Imagine having to take drugs so you can conform better to the typical style of education these days that does not take into account visual learners or those with active imaginations and energy levels! What a bunch of poop. Parents do this to their kids all the time now, instead of trying to understand their child's true patterns of learning. Pop a pill, fit in.

Our education system needs an over-haul. Until then, I think alternatives like Montessori or strong home-schooling are a budding individualist’s best hope.



Post 8

Monday, July 7, 2003 - 7:57amSanction this postReply
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By the way, I attended school in a small working-class town right next door to a major city (Boston) with some of the world's finest colleges. Let's just say the higher institutes of learning across the water did not affect our honkey-tonk methods of education one bit.



Post 9

Monday, July 7, 2003 - 12:40pmSanction this postReply
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Organized public schools have some advantages. Here are a few:

1. Socialization. Yes, Socialization is good, and important; and the child gets an opportunity to meet and relate to different types of people (yes, some unpleasant ones, too). Self-definition by comparing and contrasting.

2. Exposure to different ideas. I would have vastly prefered to have learned Objectivism first, and the rest of the crap later. But I HAVE BEEN enriched by learning the other crap. I shudder when I think about where I would be right now if my father was my only teacher.

3. Rounded education. A standardized curriculum has advantages--for example, if your Mom doesn't like math, or doesn't think its important, how good are you gonna be? Or what if your parent think History is boring and pointless? Different techers with different specialties house orders of magnitude of more knowledge than any one person can.

4. Specialist teachers. Teachers have been trained in HOW to engage young mind, how to present materials effectively. Most parents would be a hell of alot worse than the average teacher.

5. Indoctrination. Until a young mind begins to think for itself, we can and should plug Capitalism, Democracy, and Freedom with all the ardor our teachers can muster.

6. Standardized tests. Face it--standardized tests are used for job placement, college placement and admissions, graduate school, you name it. Practice makes perfect, and public school certainly introduces students to the idea of standardized tests. And they DO have their place. Mommy's little superstar make make really creative fingerpaintings, but it isn't until we test Junior against other kids his age that we have SOME inkling whether his reading skills and knowledge of basic math are up to snuff or are progressing.

Now, that stuff above is the ideal. Its the way things should, ought to and CAN be. But it isn't. Public shcools are shameful warehouses with dullards at the front of the classsroom, in the business because it means 10 months of work for a full salary, and a short work day. They preach the absolute importance of good grades and knowledge, but the student athletes are the school pets; the brains get stuffed in lockers. Many teachers are failures in their fields, or those who never even had the gumption to try their fields. Which is why an enlightened parent can give their child a much more effective educational experience at home. My girlfriend's sister is a teacher. She's a mess. She shouldn't be teaching anyone, anything. She might work as a cautionary tale. (Ok, I am being harsh here--she isn't that bad). I had some great teachers, but I have always been lucky to have had the best in every school I attended, since I was always in the accelerated classes. But I saw what purported to be 'educators' that my younger brother was stuck with--mental midgets, drunks.

I dont understand how we can have an overabundance of teachers, yet be stuck with people who are ignorant and bad at their job. I thought the market self-adjusts by pushing the for-shit teachers out of the business....oh waity, Chicago Public School teachers are unionized...

No one can dispute that there are legendary assholes roaming the halls of schools; predators just looking to inflict humiliation and pain. I can think of a few folks from high school whose death might cause me a chuckle. But school done the right way is best outside of the home.



Post 10

Monday, July 7, 2003 - 12:49pmSanction this postReply
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Scott, what about the fact that "organised public schools" are financed by coercive taxes, and that children are forced to attend. If I could find a good private school, I'd consider sending my children. Otherwise, I'd rather teach the kids myself.

And, Scott, once a kid knows how to read, write, handle maths, and work a computer, all he needs is a nudge in the right direction from time to time. Don't you think a kid would be curious about history even if his parents thought it was pointless to teach it?



Post 11

Monday, July 7, 2003 - 4:14pmSanction this postReply
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Matt:

Self-motivated and directed study works for adults. Kids, until they reach a certain point of maturity, aren't going to focus long or hard enough, generally. Sure, there are exceptions, and we (you and I) may be 2 of them. But advanced math is hard. Reading an entire novel is hard (for youngsters). Allowing kids to study when and how they feel like isn't going to improve their intellectual efficacy.

There is also the issue of--what is important that all kids know? Are there any such topics or bits of information? With home study, there is no guarantee that kids will learn these things, or that their parents will even know what these things are. Sort of feeds back into the 'professional teacher' argument.

As far as coercive taxes are concerned, and this may be Objectivist blasphemy, but I am not so bothered by the fact of taxes for schools, as I am the way taxes are spent on schools. In essence, I think we reap far greater dividends by having an educated (or at least largely literate) populace than we would by taking away public education. I can tell you in no uncertain terms that, if my parents had to pay for my education, I would have received none--and thus would never have been academically inclined once it became my choice as a young adult. I think it is true that teachers were paid less when there was no enforced public education (and you had many fewer careless hacks who were just clock-punchers), but I guarantee you that a whole heck of alot of kids never learned to read or even had the opportunity to do so.

Children need to be forced to do certain things until they reach adulthood. Being led to the fountain of knowlege is one of them. Being occasionally forced to apply themselves is another. They have their entire adult lives to spend with their heads in the sand, if they so choose.

Here's a what if. What if you have a child, and compulsory education is eliminated? What if your son doesn't like to read, doesnt want to read? What if he likes TV just fine, and doesn't see the point in reading? What if, despite your best efforts, he hasn't started to read by the time he is school age, despite a high IQ (like his father)? What happens if you are laid off from work and cannot send him to school? What if a downturn in the ecomony means you spend almost a year looking for work--no school for your son? No basic skills?

Im sure you get my point.



Post 12

Monday, July 7, 2003 - 6:03pmSanction this postReply
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Scott,

Your first post read at first as satire, but then I realised it was just me. I don't want to turn this into a school vs homeschool issue, as it's not. It's about educational values, and how to achieve them. In the current state-dominated climate, there are educational values at work. They're just the wrong ones. So homeschooling is one option to take for those who won't accept how things are.

You state 'indoctrination' as an educational ideal. Beat capitalism into them. If only it were that easy. :)

I think you're on the side of the enemy here. Education is not about indoctrination, but rather about leading a mind to independent judgement. To do this, you don't seek to fill it with a collection of 'items to remember', or 'list of life principles'. Rather you seek to engage it in a process of discovery & enquiry... of thought. And what's nice is that he/she is already doing that anyway (as she dresses Barbie different today), so you are working with what is there, and working with it in accord with it's nature.

Galt said it right: 'get out of the damn way!'



Post 13

Monday, July 7, 2003 - 6:21pmSanction this postReply
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Hey Matthew, blame your parents for your difficulties to relate :) Public schools are the instituted jungles of the west - and the hyenas are running things. And parents say to their flat children: 'Well I survived.' Which, of course, they did.



Post 14

Monday, July 7, 2003 - 6:52pmSanction this postReply
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How much independant judgment is a child capable of? How much 'good' independant judgment OUGHT a child to be allowed? A free-form 'process of discovery and enquiry' doesnt teach a core set of knowledge. The rest of your post doesn't really establish that my cited benefits of public education are invalid.

We agree on this: " In the current state-dominated climate, there are educational values at work. They're just the wrong ones."

Which is why I made it clear that I am none to happy with the state of public schools. But I think we need them, they just need to employ better techniques.

I agree that the end goal of education is not indoctrination. But we must remember that the young mind is the most malleable. Better that it be taught the value of individualism than of nihilism in its infancy, and that same is presented as 'right' and 'proper.' Whether home schooled or not, children are indoctrinated into the beliefs of those from whom they learn--it is inevitable.



Post 15

Monday, July 7, 2003 - 7:43pmSanction this postReply
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"Hey Matthew, blame your parents for your difficulties to relate Public schools are the instituted jungles of the west - and the hyenas are running things. And parents say to their flat children: 'Well I survived.' Which, of course, they did."

How true. Only, some nowadays may not survive.

A lot of parents don't take many of the issues kids may have at the hands of "hyenas" seriously. Mine didn't, and I really think it was part evasion, and part "I survived, you will too". Most do. They fair much better than most. But these days, kids are finding some rather violent means of defending themselves...and I just finished reading yet ANOTHER article about a young man conspiring for possible murder, who kept a detailed list of anyone who picked on him. Parents better start listening and figuring out how to thwart their thug children, and better yet not to shrug it off when their child comes home with a bully problem. It can't be taken lightly anymore.



Post 16

Monday, July 7, 2003 - 8:01pmSanction this postReply
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It might be beneficial for kids to have their public AND home/private schooling, or at least more parental involvement in general. That way they get the best of both worlds. There are problems with both approaches, but each could compensate for the other somewhat.

And it would help to teach a kid karate! Rational self-defense (new term!) is a great thing to have. Nothing like a little confidence in the face of physical threat from a square-skulled, grunting 10 year old when your smarts fail to succor him.



Post 17

Monday, July 7, 2003 - 9:48pmSanction this postReply
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The New Zealand Education system exists for two reasons, and two reasons only.

1. To provide employment for around 40,000 people.
2. To babysit children whilst their parents are at work.

The concept of actually learning anything is a kind of 'optional extra', and generally ignored by the pupils.
As for the teachers, (seeing as they get paid every fortnight), they could not care less.

Sending a child along to a State school in New Zealand is, frankly, bizzare.



Post 18

Tuesday, July 8, 2003 - 12:24amSanction this postReply
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Atlascott wrote: “I think we need [public schools], they just need to employ better techniques.”

Applying the same reasoning to other public institutions yields the following fallacies:
• I think we need a public postal system; it just needs to employ better techniques.
• I think we need a public telephone system; it just needs to employ better techniques.
• I think we need a public electricity system; it just needs to employ better techniques.

In South Africa, the postal service, telephone system and electricity system are all government-disorganised monopolies. And the same reasoning is always brought to their defence despite ample evidence to the contrary: “I think we need the system; it just needs to be more efficient.”

Crap!

The problem is that by its very nature, a public, monopoly system breeds inefficiency, stagnation and decline in many ways that are obvious, and in some ways that are very subtle.

The cultural decline of the last 50 years -- from common discipline problems of the 1950s such as chewing gum and shooting spitwads, to the shootings and stabbings that lead today’s headlines -- is attributable to public schooling.

Public schools -- and the prescription of a standardised curriculum across all private schools -- are inherently incapable of developing en masse the values of integrity, discipline, social skills and plain hard work. Students who develop these values and students who succeed academically, do so despite the public schooling system, not because of it.

The structure of public schooling and standardised curricula put in place a range of incentives and constraints that override the best intentions of educators and breed lethargy, irresponsibility and social dysfunctionality.

Atlascott wrote: “Whether home schooled or not, children are indoctrinated into the beliefs of those from whom they learn -- it is inevitable.”

This is simply false, and needs no further comment.

The alternative to public schooling is not limited to home schooling. The alternative to any government monopoly is competition -- radical competition between Montessori, Waldorf, Socratic Practice, and an infinite variety of alternative methodologies and curricula.

The battle for liberty is not a battle that takes place in a congress, in a senate or in a parliament. It is a conflict that takes place on the battlefields of young minds everywhere. The sooner those minds are exposed to educational values developed in the marketplace, rather than the educational disvalues festering in the swamps of public schooling, the sooner we will see the return of a life-affirming, mind-valuing and benevolent culture.



Post 19

Tuesday, July 8, 2003 - 12:56amSanction this postReply
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Sam - Thank you for your thoughts. I would love to read a post of your homeschooling experiences - the challenges and the accomplishments. If you already have some stories I'd love to read them. Barry and I have a dossier on home-schooling - it is useful having advice and "real" experiences from people who have actually done it. And its fodder for those who are vehemently opposed.

Kristin - Yes! Yes! Yes! Thats it exactly. To add to you thoughts, I also think that for women the battle is harder as we are faced with greater pressure to conform, to "act like ladies" and not to rock the boat. I don't know about you, but growing up, I felt more constrained than my two brothers and felt as if the pressure to "subdue" me by my mother and teachers was far greater than what my brothers experienced. I constantly felt as if I was battling for survival.



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